Power Posturing: The “Church Discipline” Methods of Mars Hill ~ File it Under: Spiritual Abuse

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an absolute advantage: the intelligence of experience « JRFibonacci's blog: partnering with reality, on April 20, 2012 at 13:14 said:

[...] Power Posturing: The “Church Discipline” Methods of Mars Hill ~ File it Under: Spiritual… (thereformedtraveler.wordpress.com) [...]
Diane, on February 4, 2012 at 12:54 said:

“By lifting up men with minimal theological commitments as examples to pastors, the Elephant Room is proclaiming, perhaps unwittingly, that a rigorous concern for sound doctrine is not essential to the pastoral office. Let me explain.”

Please do. I agree.
Another excerpt from this article which is provided via link below:

“Something similar holds true for a number of the other individuals bought to the Elephant Room. While there are certainly some notable exceptions (e.g., Driscoll, author of Doctrine), if you skim over the line-up for the two Elephant Room conferences, a good percentage of the men would be self-consciously a-theological. By a-theological, I’m certainly not saying that the men are heretics or apostates. I do not doubt their conversions or sincerity. Rather, it’s that they do not emphasize sound doctrine in their preaching and teaching, do not have a firm grasp of sound doctrine themselves, and, frankly, do not see this as a problem. Anyone with any familiarity with the Elephant Room should immediately concede this. I recently read an article by one of the men present at last year’s Elephant Room (who will remain nameless to protect the guilty) where he derided efforts by churches to emphasize sound doctrine, claiming they hinder outreach. Again, these men are held forth as examples for pastors to emulate.”
http://www.credomag.com/2012/02/01/how-the-elephant-room-is-redefining-the-pastoral-office/

Well, as far as questionabl doctrine, we are familiar with some of them. Looking at the men who were invited…pondering that–you can look them up and get a feel for what they teach…and check out who they promote. Not really surprising imo that they “affirmed” Jakes, so to speak, because I believe most of them were of or near the same mind already. Perhaps “not so different” different brothers coming together to dalogue after all? Something to think about with each of them.

It was noted on MacDonald’s blog that he was anxious to learn about Jakes prosperity gospel and that there might be more truth in that then we know…something along those lines. Driscoll did not follow up with hard questions for Jakes during the Trinity discussion …why? Might it be because Driscoll and Furtick and MacDonald are quite united? After all, MacDonald had Furtick preach at his church and Furtick is very enamored with Jakes. MacDonald and Jakes speak at Furtick’s conferences. Jakes teaches a false wof/prosperity gospel which Furtick evidently thinks is good. Jack Graham has ministered with Jakes before—(only an association, to be sure) but not something to be entirely dismissed.
http://theexpositor.wordpress.com/2007/05/21/luis-palau-and-jack-graham-team-up-with-td-jakes/
Steven Furtick is caught up in the word/faith teachings and promotes Jakes as the best preacher in the world (stated at his recent orange conference) so on very friendly terms with Jakes. Crawford Lorritts– I do not know much about him, but he has been in the post ER2 news with racism “anti anti Jakes” conversation.. And Wayne Cordeiro is a big church planting pastor and #3 of the top 29 churches to learn from in all areas of ministry.
http://churchrelevance.com/resources/top-churches-in-america/

So…am not too much surprised about Jakes and their approval of him.
- dawnmarie4, on February 4, 2012 at 17:55 said:
  
  I guess prosperity seems to be in who you know. This stuff is never ending. Well…the bigger they are, the harder they fall. Let’s just hope people get out of the way when it happens.
  
  From the first article… http://www.credomag.com/2012/02/01/how-the-elephant-room-is-redefining-the-pastoral-office/
  
  “One of the prerequisites to the pastoral office is that a man be able to teach sound doctrine (1 Timothy 3:2; Titus 1:5-9). Part of the basic job description of the pastor is to proclaim sound doctrine and refute error (Titus 1:9). Pastors are charged to train up their entire congregation in sound doctrine (1 Timothy 4:13-16; Titus 2:1). Pastors are to preach the Word in season and out since the time is coming when those who do not tolerate sound doctrine will infiltrate the church (2 Timothy 4:1-4 [parallelism indicates that preaching the Word is preaching sound doctrine]; cf. Acts 20:28ff.). And the Lord’s stamp of approval on a man’s ministry is partially measured by his commitment to sound doctrine (1 Timothy 4:6). Therefore, for any man to say, “I’m not very concerned about sound doctrine,” is simply another way of saying, “I’m not qualified to be a pastor,” let alone an example for pastors to emulate.”
Diane, on February 3, 2012 at 10:58 said:

Re: FV:

“On June 22, 2002, the Reformed Presbyterian Church of the United States (RPCUS) declared that Wilson’s and Wilkins’ teaching “has the effect of destroying the Reformed Faith through the introduction of false hermeneutic principles; the infusion of sacerdotalism; and the redefinition of the doctrines of the church, the sacraments, election, effectual calling, perseverance, regeneration, justification, union with Christ, and the nature and instrumentality of faith. . . . We therefore resolve that these teachings are heretical.”
http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/WilsonCalvinist.htm

His teachings have been diagnosed as heretical, so what should we call Wilson? A false teacher of heretical doctrines?
- Born4Battle, on February 3, 2012 at 16:42 said:
  
  Atthe same time, in 2011, sevral men were aquitted of heresy charges. FV is very confusing and I think convoluted. However, I refuse to personally condemn these men, but rather pray for them and the restoration of true reformed teaching.
  - dawnmarie4, on February 3, 2012 at 20:15 said:
    
    Born, I say this with love and respect for you. Understand that. I am only replying to this because you made the same comment a few times in the last few days which tells me that you feel that what you are saying is important. With that, I offer, though unsolicited my feelings on the statement about prayer for false teachers.
    
    False teaching is false teaching. The scriptures make it clear that many should not teach. Teachers are held to a different standard. Their teaching affects souls. Souls that are eternal. It also speaks of a stricter judgement on false teachers. Heresy is heresy. It doesn’t matter if you like the preacher that preaches it. Heresy is heresy. How far can one walk out on the ledge before we should be willing to call it what it is? Do we forgive some heresy and tolerate other? I understand that there are blogs out there where it seems the only purpose is to drudge up dirt and run things into the ground…over and over and over. For some it’s all about Rick Warren, others, the emerging church, pick your topic you know? I say that, to say this..
    
    I remember years back I was told I needed to pray for false teachers. I felt really condemned for my lack of prayer for them. I searched the scriptures and the weird thing was that I didn’t see anything at all that said we should pray for these men. I was shocked actually. I found stuff talking about praying for those who persecute me (obviously talking about nonbelievers who hurt you in some way whether it be physical or mental), I found stuff about forgiving and forgiving my brothers and sisters in Christ no matter how many times they hurt me, but all I found was condemnation for false teachers…condemnation set for them since before the foundation of the world…how they have a special judgement reserved for them, how they are sent to those who have itchy ears, stuff like that. I found that judgement begins in the house of the Lord. I found warnings to run from them. To expose them for what they are. To search the scriptures to find out if what they were saying was true. I found warning that they would rise up from among believers…and that they would actually teach believers.
    
    If a wolf is in the midst of a sheepfold, ready to pounce…do we stop and pray for the wolf? That is not practical advice. We run from the wolf. We yell wolf!! We hide behind our good shepherd. And then later, when we are safe, sure pray for them if you feel compelled to do so. We don’t get on our knees in prayer and play nice and wait for him to pick us off one by one. This is a spiritual battle and it’s very serious and very subtle sometimes. These are not just men. We are talking about the doctrines of demons and we are told that in these times, men will give heed to them and be empowered by them. Sometimes, strong language is required. I hate to bring up this example, but Paul actually wished these men who trouble us would mutiliate or emasculte themselves.
    
    In the past, I was deceived by many of them. I gave them the benefit of the doubt, and it hurt my soul. I didn’t dare speak out against them because I felt I had no right to judge anyone. But I do have a right to judge teaching. He has shown me one by one, little by little that all the men I thought were so wonderful were exactly the opposite. It’s been very painful, lots of tears and condemnation for myself above all. I have repented for my ignornace and unwillingness to pay attention to the things that God has told me through scripture. I have repented for not taking his warning seriously, for thinking I could never be deceived. I have repented for believing that love meant be nice and don’t offend.
    
    I’m not saying it’s wrong to pray for them. I think we each do as God leads, but sometimes it feels like those who say they are just praying for them and hoping for restoration are in their own way, condemning those who expose the heresy and run, I will not say error here because one who is claiming to have a calling from God to preach must be above reproach and there should not be error like this. That is exactly what the bible says. Watch your doctrine closely, a man who preaches much be above reproach. Watch out for wolves in sheeps clothing. Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
    
    I am not talking about people who are killing the body here. I am talking about one who is killing souls, one who is hurting the sheep. I am not speaking of the followers of these men either. I want to be clear about that. I am talking about the teachers themselves, who we were told not even to wish godspeed to because if we do, we are partaking in their sin. I pray all the time for the followers of these teachers…and I will always pray for my bretheren. But I will not pray for false teachers. Once I know who they are…I don’t believe God ever commanded me to pray for them. It’s just not in scripture Born. I’ve looked…oh, believe me brother, I have looked.
    
    You may refuse to condemn these men Born. I completely respect your right to your opinion on that. Completely. But some of us have not been called to do that, nor have I been able to find scriptural support to do that. I do not condemn these men either, in the sense of writing them off to go to hell. I believe anyone can be saved. But I certainly condemn their doctrine and hate what they are teaching. As I’ve said before, I pray for their salvation or I pray that God would destroy their ministry and expose them for what they are. I pray that God will hand them over to Satan to destroy their flesh so that their soul may be saved, but I do not pray that they be able to continue what they are doing. I have been told to run away from these men and not only run, but to warn about these men.
    
    2Jo 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.
  - Born4Battle, on February 4, 2012 at 08:34 said:
    
    Perhaps I should have explained further what I was trying to say. I hate false teaching as much as anyone else.
    
    There are false teachers who have been at it for years, if not decades, for whom I have much personal disdain.I would probably applaud if God did a pinpoint lightning bolt and took them to hell in front of their fleeced flocks (sparing the flock). There are others who were stalwarts of our faith who seem to have drifted down questionable paths.
    
    There are ‘teachings’ that are plainly heretical, and there are teachings that are confusing and require more digging into the Bible and scriptural principals to apply accurate discernment. The heretical needs to be exposed and their teachers named. Are their teachers beyond the reach of God’s saving grace? Believing (or not) in election impacts the answer, but I have no idea who is/isn’t. That is maintained in the counsel of God.
    
    The enemy always counterfeits something genuine, ‘other’ gospels in my opinion being the worst. I am frankly appalled at the latest Elephant Room, in which T.D. Jakes seemingly got a pass on his really fuzzy dealing with Modalism v. Trinity, and the poisonous HWP ‘gospel not being dealt with at all!
    
    Very true and I don’t want to sound like one. It’s easy to sound like one even if we think we don’t. Is every church covenant ‘bad’? Are all ministries trying to restore biblical roles of men and women trying to control women? Can just about anyone be deceived into believing theirs is really sound and it’s not? Yes, but the elect ultimately not, if I read the Bible correctly.
    
    I guess the gist of it is that while condemning what I see as false teaching or heresy (am I always right?) I do see biblical ground for personally condemning them. I’ll expose the false teaching and let God be the ultimate judge. And even in the matter of false teaching, I think I need to examine closely what I see that might be in error based on initial ‘gut’ (at times fleshly) reactions.
    
    I respect the inability for folks being able to pray for some kinds of people. I can’t pray personally for specific terrorists. I have a close friend who maintains a Web presence about adopting terrorists for prayer. I told him when he started it some years ago that I had difficulty with that. He wanted me to post it on the site but I didn’t. We are still good friends, but I still haven’t adopted a terrorist. I spent some years in the business of helping them meet their maker, with my government’s approval. And it’s really hard to pray that God save or restore false teachers, but I do (but not all of them)
    
    My priority should be to share the truth in love. When that is in a public forum such as this, I also need to try and not sound like I’m engaged in ‘blogosmearing’ even though I don’t think I am. Like you said, eternal souls are at stake.
    
    Well, that’s probably more than enough for now. Saturday morning things to do.
  - dawnmarie4, on February 4, 2012 at 11:35 said:
    
    Born, you said…
    
    “My priority should be to share the truth in love. When that is in a public forum such as this, I also need to try and not sound like I’m engaged in ‘blogosmearing’ even though I don’t think I am. Like you said, eternal souls are at stake.”
    
    I agree and I understand what you are saying. Thank you for not only reading my response to you, but for your gracious reply. I’m not a fan of the blogosmearing either and the more I see of it, I see alot of very angry, hurt people who make alot of poor assumption and I don’t see any sort of truth in love. I don’t see any desire either to see what the Bible has to say about anything they discuss really and well…it shows. We all have a certain hypocrisy it seems. We see other people’s failures yet seem to ignore our own. I suppose that the only thing that will help any of us is to ask God to reveal that in our own hearts and ask for Him to change us.
    
    I know myself that I am guilty of the same sorts of things and I know that God is working on that part of me. I don’t want to be the angry christian that seeks to tear apart other believers. I don’t want to be that angry woman that I see on some of these sites. God doesn’t want that for me either. I believe there is a way to expose while showing biblical love. I wish I were better at it. With time I suppose.
    
    The whole speaking the truth in love is a really hard thing to learn. With time, I pray that God will give me that ability. I know I’m much better off than I was years ago, but I have a long way to go…
    
    God bless you brother.
  - Born4Battle, on February 4, 2012 at 13:51 said:
    
    You are very dear to me, especially for your strong stance for truth and a pure gospel. I also know that when people have been hurt by the church, which includes by false teaching, the challenge to be loving in our exposing is even more difficult. “Feed the sheep, but shoot the wolves,” makes a lot of sense to this old soldier, for sure. I thiink biblically exposing their lies does that in several ways, and come judgment, the righteous judge will dispose of them if they don’t repent.
    
    You’re a sweet and precious sister!
  - dawnmarie4, on February 5, 2012 at 09:24 said:
    
    Thank you Born. Ditto.
dawnmarie4, on February 2, 2012 at 19:55 said:

I don’t know if you got these links yet Jo, I suspect you may have…but HOLY SMOKES! Lord help us all.

This is from Diane.

First here…

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/02/02/mark-dever-9-marks-edict-you-cannot-resign-wo-permission/

then here…

http://www.9marks.org/blog/pastors-don%E2%80%99t-let-your-people-resign-thin-air

then below comment from TWW…

Deb on Thu, Feb 02 2012 at 07:01 pm

Update at 9 Marks,
Bobby Jamieson has posted the following comment in response to the numerous commenters who have challenged him:
Bobby Jamieson | 2.2.2012
“For those of you who have raised questions about the legal propriety of my counsel, I’d refer you to Ken Sande’s article on our website about informed consent, and to the relational guidelines Peacemaker Ministries has drafted to enable churches to practice discipline in a legally protected manner.
Here’s a link to Sande’s article: http://www.9marks.org/ejournal/informed-consent-biblical-and-legal-protection-church-discipline
Thanks,
Bobby”

and finaly the Sande article…

http://www.9marks.org/ejournal/informed-consent-biblical-and-legal-protection-church-discipline
- Diane, on February 3, 2012 at 10:32 said:
  
  Dawn- here’s a comment from a retired pastor about the 9Marks article:
  
  “randall slack on Fri, Feb 03 2012 at 08:24 am
  As a Pastor (retired) I can tell you that the 9Marks article only encourages pastors to abuse. It is nothing more than a power grab and it will end in the ruin of many lives.
  
  having lived through the “Shepherding Movement” of the 1970′s, this is clearly a move to revive such a heresy.”
  http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/02/02/mark-dever-9-marks-edict-you-cannot-resign-wo-permission/
  - dawnmarie4, on February 5, 2012 at 10:37 said:
    
    I guess my feelings on this is that the church institution does not own men. Christ does and Satan does. While we are given guidelines to follow about when and how to discipline, it seems some covenants go above and beyond what the Bible says. I believe we have done that with the church institution in general. Not all, but the vast majority. When our paperwork in the church exceeds the number of pages in scripture itself, I think we have to ask ourselves why?
    
    If a church needs to consult a lawyer, that should be a red flag. If a church uses things like membership to regulate the Lord’s supper…keeping it from other christians based on whether or not they have officially joined the church according to mens standards, it’s a red flag. If a church makes one get rebaptized because say for instance, they were saved in a non-denominational church and now want to join and SBC, that is a red flag. I was raised in that type of environment and though I understand there are reasons these things are done, I think if we honestly look at those reasons, they are not God’s reasons. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. If a church makes a christian go to their membership classes in order to “join”…that should be a red flag. We just don’t see these sorts of things practiced in the Book of Acts…but we do see them in secular society and business and politics. The body has one contract, and that is signed and sealed with the blood of Christ and the Holy Spirit. Not pen and paper. Contracts are for one thing only…to force people to do the things they said they would do when they entered into them. If you don’t like the contract, don’t sign it. Go somewhere else for your product or service. I think that is just common sense isn’t it? No business excuses someone for not following the contract just because they didn’t read the fine print.
    
    There is nothing new under the sun and history repeats itself.
    
    If we liken the assembly to a family, which it is or at least should be, we don’t need lawyers and contracts. I myself, will never sign the dotted line and would rather stay on the outside, as a black sheep with my handful of faithful friends that I fellowship with rather than “join” anything…whether it be a secular club or a religious institution. That is where God has me at this point in my life.
    
    If other believers decide that this is what they want for themselves, that is between them and God. I believe God tells each of His children what He wants in His way and His time and He has his own reasons for why He does things. Sometimes, in order for God to get His people to listen to Him, He allows them to be deceived and become involved in things that He, Himself might hate. He allows them to reap the consequences. When those consequences are reaped, one who is His will grow closer to Him….if they don’t, well, lets just say that God will have His own one way or another. One who is not His will go on to the next new thing or continue on in the same thing that hurt them in the first place, never learning the lesson as they pile anger and hurt, upon anger and hurt upon themselves, never seeing the truth…
    
    In the cases of people like Driscoll and Mahaney…well, they teach false doctrine and someone who is saved is responsible for whatever happens to them when they choose to sit under these teachers. These are hard lessons to learn and they have consequences. If we reap those consequences, we can be angry and bitter or we can be thankful to God for his chastening and move on.
    
    I feel badly for those who are abused by authority and churches that have overstepped their bounds. I’m angry for the things I see especially the fact that despite everything, these men are allowed to continue beating people down, hiding crimes etc. But I can’t ignore the fact that people chose to turn a blind eye towards them, lifting them up as little gods. People are buying what these men are selling and nothing but God Himself will stop it.
    
    We are each responsible for the things we willingly bring upon ourselves and allow ourselves to be ruled by. We can call these folks victims, but are they really? No man can make any of us do anything. If we decide that we need men to teach us what the Holy Spirit promised He would teach us, well, that’s our own fault. We choose to allow it. If we don’t want to know or follow what scripture says, we reap what we sow. We want to be a part of something, we want friends, we want to be accepted, we want to be liked, we want praise and it seems that different people are willing to put up with different things in order to get that. It’s unfortunate, but we are all guilty of it in one way or another. The road is narrow, we were warned over and over and if we chose to ignore that, there is a price to pay.
Born4Battle, on February 2, 2012 at 18:58 said:

Referene FV, Michael Horton wrote an article that I thought was really helpful and that ‘cuts to the chase’, withut calling anyone a heretic, or otherwise using condemning lantuage of any kind. I think he nails it. I’ve read and listened to enough to know the enemy is busy, on both sides of the theological fence. It’s an issue within the ranks of the Reformed that is causing confusion and division, no only within those ranks. It has also produced some harsh and very unchristianlike language. I can only speculate how many of the FV critics are weeping in sorrow for the strife and for the restoration of those who err.
Diane, on February 1, 2012 at 17:33 said:

Oooh, I see. “What I told you was true from a certain point of view.”

“Wenatchee The Hatchet on Wed, Feb 01 2012 at 02:11 pm

Interesting, folks are speaking without pseudonyms and on the record this time. Jeff Bettger, Paul Petry, Bent Meyer, and Dusty Wisniew are all guys I knew in my Mars days. Actually I used to help deliver offering to the central campus with Dusty years ago so I know exactly what he described. We were both former members who decided not to renew when in late 2007 MH cancelled out all membeership and essentially asked everyone to re-apply for membership like they were new members. There were about 1,000 who didn’t renew. As Mark told the Gospel Coalition in 2008 1,000 members “left” during the process of the Doctrine series and the new demands of membership. The doctrinal statement was not really revised at that point and what was changed were the by-laws. Members were also advised that they needed to sign that they agreed with the by-laws as part of membership renewal. More than a few of us, including me, refused to do that. So it’s not that we “left”, it’s that the elders ended the covenant/contract; asked us to renew; and some of us decided that was that. Driscoll’s account to the Gospel Coalition fits the Ben Kenobi criteria of honesty (“What I told you was true from a certain point of view”) but it doesn’t fit the point of view I and other former members had during that period.”
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/01/30/fired-mars-hill-elder-breaks-his-silence/
Diane, on February 1, 2012 at 11:58 said:

Interesting article about Mars Hill’s make believe authority.An excerpt:

“Driscoll answered questioners in a sermon: “Some adults are just always questioning… these are people with critical spirits. These are people that if you answer their question, they’ve got 25 more questions, and they’ll have questions forever. And it’s not that they have questions, it’s that they’re sinning through questioning. The heart is not good.”

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/church-or-cult/Content?oid=12172001

No “good heart” for those with 25 more questions, judges Mark Driscoll. I guess one answer should suffice–if not, one is “sinning through questioning.” I have read that same phrase-sinning through questioning- from Driscoll’s mentor CJ Mahaney. It was taught to the SGMers as well. I can see where that teaching would come in handy. No good heart? But I want to have a good heart. Sinning through questioning? I don’t want to do that..I want my pastor to think I am good….with a good heart…I shouldn’t ask too many questions then.
- thereformedtraveler, on February 1, 2012 at 13:15 said:
  
  Good article. Great pic the author chose to put with this and the last line….”Womb to tomb. Just as long as you don’t ask too many questions.” Of course this is directed to any menfolk that would ask questions, right? since the woman have been totally silenced in these groups. Diane, if you want to know something you have to ask your husband, since he is the one that sanctifies you and presents you to the Lord when we get to heaven and says, “Look what I’ve done!” (referring to Challies recent teaching)…and besides what’s with questions? That shouldn’t even enter your mind to have a question..what’s a matta with you?
  
  Although I don’t know why Driscoll (as seen in article) keeps saying the his views of the gender gospel are controversial….his views are identical as The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. Doesn’t everyone know that Patriarchy is the normative? If we want to get back to any norm on this we have to go pre-1970′s. So figured out what I am, Diane..a pre 1970′s complementarian (before there was such a word, before CBMW)…..not that anyone cares (Thought I’d throw the wimminfolk issue in with this, since the article you posted includes the issue.)
  
  “All of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
  - Diane, on February 1, 2012 at 15:08 said:
    
    Why….yes. It must be referring to the men. I didn’t think of that. See what a poor member of Mars Hill I would be? I better stay away.
Diane, on February 1, 2012 at 08:29 said:

Hi Born,

You wrote:

“My gut feeling is that we have another encroaching of works into our justification, which is Rome’s error,”

I believe you are correct. That is my feeling as well…law and gospel
distinctions being lost…. that quote from his book is disturbing.
dawnmarie4, on January 31, 2012 at 19:23 said:

This is what the PCA 34th General Assembly reported on the Federal Visionists. It starts on page 2209 and ends on 2236 if anyone is interested. This is a document that has been very helpful to me in “defining terms”…

Report of Ad Interim Study Committee on Federal Vision, New Perspective and Auburn Avenue Theology

http://www.federal-vision.com/pdf/pcafvreport.pdf
- dawnmarie4, on January 31, 2012 at 19:28 said:
  
  Monergism also has a selection of material on the movement.
  
  http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/New-Perspective-on-Paul/Federal-Vision/
  - dawnmarie4, on February 1, 2012 at 08:12 said:
    
    I think this is the series Born is talking about by Schwertley. I’m listening too and he did mention Joe the Plumber, so I’m pretty sure this is it.
    
    Auburn Avenue Theology Refutation
    
    http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?keyword=auburn%20avenue%20theology%20refutation
  - Born4Battle, on February 1, 2012 at 17:01 said:
    
    That’s the one I’m listening to. There is another series by John Otis I have started listening to. Schwertly’s series is longer and each segment longer and uses Federal Vision quotes by various men, pointiung out contradictions and other things. He is right – FV is confusing and filled with doctrinal ‘slight of hand tricks’ (my term), I think. The other series is much easier to follow without as many FV direct quotations.
  - thereformedtraveler, on February 1, 2012 at 17:46 said:
    
    Yes, definitely full of ‘now you see it, now you don’t” bag of tricks. Some say it’s like nailing jello to a wall, especially when discussing face to face with a FV. Born, also have the page (on top blog) called Analyzing FV that has other links that might be of interest.(and of course have the ‘Weird Tales from Federal Vision’ link on left sidebar. One point of concern (one among many-many) is how FV is paraded through Sproul’s Tabletalk magazine. Several of these guys write regularly for that publication. Wilson has made great strides into the ‘new calvinist’ camp in the past 5 or so years, arms opened wide to him and for him. Now becoming a household name and now his teaching are so interwoven into this camp….well, very deceptive, very dangerous. I think FV is top priority for all of us to study since we all are being bombarded with it from all sides and it’s not even recognizable in most cases!…that is unless we know what we are looking for! I know for myself, I’ll be reading someone and I’ll think – Wait just a minute!!! Am I reading this right, are they really saying this?!! Oh, my…this is FV theology! (wrapped up in all these nice sounding words) May the Lord continue to give us discernment in these matters.
dawnmarie4, on January 31, 2012 at 19:02 said:

Here is the link from the information that Born found.

http://www.federal-vision.com/?page_id=41
Diane, on January 31, 2012 at 13:02 said:

Excellent comment from the survivors site today. And since CJ Mahaney mentored Mark Driscoll, exchange SGM with Mars Hill, when applicable.

65Kris

January 31st, 2012 at 10:39 am
Kindred,

The responses of those out in the Reformed blogging/writing world have been on my mind today. I was going through some old drafts of posts that I started but either never finished or never published, and I found one I’d written last summer, back when the SGM developments were flying so fast and furious that there never seemed to be an appropriate time to put up something that was just a “Kris editorial” sort of thing. But as I read that unpublished post again this morning, I was thinking I might just put it up anyway, despite the fact that it’s no longer as timely as it was back when I first threw it together.

It’s a post addressed to Kevin DeYoung, but many aspects could apply to all of the Reformed bloggers/authors who have endorsed CJ and SGM in one form or another. I have struggled mightily to reconcile how it is that these guys can write so much that is so good…and how they can seem to be so wise and insightful and discerning about so many issues…and yet at the same time continue to be so willfully blind about SGM, to the point where a blogger like Tim Challies (http://www.challies.com/) now makes it his policy not to publish any negative or questioning comments about CJ/SGM (though as far as I can tell, he has no problem letting the positive comments through)…and where someone like Brian Croft can wax emotional as he expresses his dismay over CJ’s negative press (http://practicalshepherding.com/2012/01/23/why-am-i-grateful-for-c-j-mahaneys-ministry/)…

Ultimately, I think these guys’ seeming eagerness to defend CJ and gloss over his (and SGM’s) real problems comes down to a few factors.

One is that, as has been discussed here in the past, many of these guys have a vested interest in maintaining good relationships with big-name book endorsers and those who would otherwise influence large swaths of people to buy books – guys like CJ. I can understand their reluctance to make waves. The bottom line is, well, the bottom line. It’s highly unlikely that a former web designer like Tim Challies would have the career he has today – “World’s Most Famous Christian Blogger™,” author of multiple books, semi-celebrity conference speaker, pastor – if he hadn’t spent years making a name for himself as the level-headed but essentially positive reviewer of the products that ministries like SGM put out. The Christian publishing world is a reciprocal place, to say the least. No one can really afford to tick off someone like CJ, whose endorsement frequently meant an entire denomination family of churches would dash out, lemming-like, to buy whatever book he might recommend.

Another factor for why so many of these bloggers/authors seem so reluctant to face facts about SGM is, I think, rooted in ego. Pride. Challies originally came to fame in part for his series of posts analyzing Rick Warren’s Purpose-Driven materials. Challies was one of the original “discernment bloggers.” What would it say about his discernment, if it turns out that he was actually duped by a cult and its charismatic leader?

Perhaps the biggest factor, though, is simply that these celebrity bloggers/authors/pastors have had totally different firsthand experiences with CJ and SGM because they are celebrity bloggers/authors/pastors. Really, I think that’s at the heart of it. These guys simply do not understand (or don’t want to see) that the very root of what has made SGM an abusive ministry – its hierarchal preferential treatment of people (leaders) deemed “more important” – is precisely why their own experiences with CJ have been so glowingly positive.

It’s actually kind of a “Duh!!” thing. I mean, of COURSE Brian Croft has experienced nothing but warmth, kindness, and encouragement from CJ. Of course! Why wouldn’t he? Brian Croft is someone of value in CJ’s eyes – he’s a pastor and leader, someone with the power of the pen, someone with influence (whether he fully realizes it or not). The very reason Brian Croft can gush with warm fuzzies about CJ is also the same reason why the “little people” beneath him have been shown the door when they question leaders within SGM. SGM is a status-conscious, hierarchal ministry with a cultic pyramid leadership structure that gives different treatment to people depending upon where they fall along that pyramid. Guys with blogs, book endorsers? Important! Pastors from other ministries with connections to influential Reformed people? VERY important! Roll out the red carpet for them!

So, yeah – I think it comes down to the bottom line, ego, and not wanting to open their minds to the idea that the way they were treated is not how everyone is treated.

Someday, though, I have a feeling all these guys are going to wish they’d been just as skeptical of CJ/SGM as they are of the likes of Rick Warren and T.D. Jakes.

Time will tell.
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=3292#comments
Diane, on January 30, 2012 at 22:21 said:

Reading this Mars Hill “lead” pastor course description/boot camp/ten month uproot your family to Seattle so we can infuse the Mars Hill DNA into you all ordeal… makes for interesting reading. I wonder what a “strong Priestly gifting is? And a strong gifting in “priestly” roles?

Not to mention building that “world class church and ministry operations.” Oh good…Jesus does show up in the list–He gets an honorable mention. You gotta love Jesus. Why…yes. That would be good. Anything about serving/caring for the sheep here? Maybe the lead leader of the other leaders over the rest of the leaders isn’t supposed to do that.

WHAT ARE THE RESPONSIBILITES OF MARS HILL LEAD PASTORS?
Qualifications:

Fulfill the duties required of Mars Hill Church members as outlined in the membership covenant

Fulfill the character qualifications of an Elder as taught in Scripture & complete the Mars Hill Elder process

Alignment with church leaders and passionate about casting vision and development of leaders

Proven track record in ministry and biblical discipleship of others at a Deacon/Elder level

Humble, desire to continually improve, and passion to build a world-class church and ministry operations

Commitment to serving Mars Hill Church and support the mission

Discretion, perseverance, patience, and sense of humor; team spirit and genuine caring

Strong Priestly gifting with the ability to influence and inspire those on their team

Knowledge & Skills:

Have a strong gift of leadership and proven track record of attracting and developing leaders of leaders

Loves Jesus and has a desire to see lives and communities changed by the gospel

Possess entrepreneurial spirit with a strong gifting in priestly roles

Successful at multi-tasking, time management, prioritizing, and influencing a team

Ability to create & cast vision, engage the culture with the gospel, and communicate with compelling clarity

Ability to handle sensitive issues, maintain confidentiality and trust regarding church and memberinformation

Ability to work with and maintain positive, loyal relationships with others in and outside the church

Ability to communicate clearly through preaching, teaching, and being in front of people
13
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:3j_LGCrke9sJ:cdn.theresurgence.com/files/2012/01/15/Lead_Pastor_Residency.pdf+mars+hill+lead+pastor+training&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESim1Cdr9areaR_LqEqh-DDfjWuU1NhSydKhAbxRrNElrBGxPj6hHPtzGeKJINhACSulVmtRdPnsnxTW68gZElCTs0Vo3cqAXHFvnm49v7tkDX4q7sHU_xcUbMzaWDjToPcWCtHX&sig=AHIEtbRnmtA3D0gnng6PLxNtvlySlk4aLw
- thereformedtraveler, on January 31, 2012 at 08:46 said:
  
  I looked up Mars Hill KING/PRIEST/ PROPHET and here is the link Driscoll sends us to, explaining this Ecclesiastical Hierarchy http://davekraft.squarespace.com/posts/2011/2/22/triperspectivalism-and-leadership.html
  
  (btw) Lots of vision casting in this list….just some quick info about this New Age practice:
  
  The term vision casting is discussed below:
  
  As a brand new Christian, I had been horrified years ago to find what amounted to be a New Age book, written by a pastor, prominently displayed on the shelf of a local Christian bookstore. The book was filled with everything I had just left behind in the New Age. Cloaked in Christian language, it encouraged the reader to use guided visualization (now often called “vision casting”) and other metaphysical techniques to gain whatever it was they wanted. Pastors were encouraged to “visualize and dream bigger churches” or “a new mission field” or whatever else they thought would improve their church and ministry (1 ).http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/visioncastingrw.htm
  
  The vision casting principle is almost universally accepted across denominational lines and is taught by most evangelical leaders. It is taught by the popular ‘Lead Like Jesus’ leadership training, Robert Schuller’s Church Growth Institute, The Purpose Driven Church, Willow Creek and most Christian seminaries. Andy Stanley’s book ‘Making Vision Stick’ boast the following:
  
  Noted author and pastor Andy Stanley points out that if followers don’t get the vision, it’s because the leaders haven’t delivered it. He reveals the three reasons vision doesn’t stick. And then he delivers three ways to make vision stick, to make you a leader worth following:
  
  Cast vision strategically: defining your vision
  Celebrate vision systematically: regularly rejoicing in the successes
  Live your vision continuously: putting your vision into practice in your own life
  
  Rarely will you see a vision advertisement that puts the focus on anyone but you. Christ is pushed aside, the scriptures are misrepresented, ignored or rejected and you become the driving force behind your own vision. Vision casting is the latest hot trend to take the church by storm. Almost every single pastor’s seminar, church leadership conference and church growth lecture uses terms such as ‘vision casting, creative vision, visionary leadership’ and so on. http://www.exchangedlife.com/Sermons/topical/vision/vision2.shtml
Diane, on January 30, 2012 at 08:59 said:

Dawn wrote:

“…yet now, ministries are so massive and books, websites, conferences, streaming sermons, radio, video etc. almost makes it seem like these men are not interested in a closed system for anything besides protecting themselves from the public finding out about their indiscretions…”

I agree with your comment. God does at times shed the light, for all to see who will see on these men that try to deceive and hide thier wrongdoing and thanks be to God He

does that.
- dawnmarie4, on January 30, 2012 at 10:25 said:
  
  I’ glad He does that too Diane. I know that sometimes we don’t quite agree on HOW it’s done, but once it’s out there, I think we need to pay attention.
  
  I think about how we have dealt with cults in the past. Exit stories from ex-mormons, JW’s, ex-catholics, ex-scientologists etc. etc. and I’m not so sure that this is any different. It’s just hard coming to grips with the idea that so many church that we think are true ministries, just aren’t. It should be no suprise…we were warned by Christ Himself many times. It hurts to know you’ve been listening to what turns out to be a subtle wolf who heards goats, yet in Mark’s case and CJ’s case, not so subtle…
  
  You know, I was never a Piper fan. I always saw him as a bit too emotional and unstable, a bit “girly” like in a pre-teen sort of way (so it really cracks me up that he’s the cussin pastors mentor)…but I gave him the benefit of the doubt and just decided he wasn’t my style and I do not appreciate the charismatic or pentacostal bent in any ministry to be honest with you. That just opens the door for all kinds of falsehood…well turns out he was more than I thought he was and as time goes on, he just shows more and more what he is made of. Gosh, as it turns out, all these guys, CJ, Driscol, Piper are all part of big tapestry of falsehood and they have many buddies in it with them. Some of the BIGGEST names in ministry. Some of these men are very very subtle through what they do say and what they don’t say. Their own words or lack of expose them as well as their rantings against, yet affiliations with the same doctrines they rant about…I think folks like John Macarthur fit into the really really subtle category. There are soo sooo many more. You could spend your whole life learning about all of this. Personally, I am thankful for those who keep me informed…again, it keeps me from wasting my time on them.
Diane, on January 29, 2012 at 19:33 said:

Very interesting comment.

“Bent Meyer on Sun, Jan 29 2012 at 06:06 pm

I am one of the men fired the day of Mark’s rant about two elders he felt needed to broken noses. Someone asked what has happened since that day.
I am happy to say, the next Sunday my wife and I attended another Church with far better expository teaching and a community that authentically and generously helps the marginalized.
I also finished my master program and have a private mental health practice serving the Seattle and Eastside area. This was a very good and satisfying result.
Regarding, whether I spoke up or not. I have not been silenced by any direct or implied threats of retaliation. It is clear that the one who possess the air waves controls the content and spin of a story, so there was not much to be done.
I thought a lot about how I would response and just what my motives would be. I chose not to be lured into a public argument through the Seattle Times asking me for a blow by blow description of the events I have documented. I have a tendency to keep material for years and years.
I did prepare my narrative, including supporting documents for members only to read who came to me for explanation. They had to agree, never to disclose any of it to the media. These people have been honorable. As best I know, none have. By doing this I opened up myself to their scrutiny and possible rebuke. I have received nothing but kindness and support.
As to my motives, I want Mark’s best. In my opinion he is a very troubled man. He is caught in his own hell. The consequence, of course, is the influence he has on others, which is mixed.
He, Lief Moi, and Mike Gunn, together the founders of Mars Hill Church, sent out to focus on those that were young, upwardly mobile and future leaders. They wanted to position themselves to influence their faith decisions and their life choices. This is a lessen for many church leaders to learn from and choose for themselves.
The downside is Mark’s pathology shows up in ways that are impulsive, aggressive, irascible, shut off from effective relational influence, and most apparent not respectful and submissive to no one, though he claims otherwise.
I have hoped and still hope for something short of him destroying himself would bring about substantial change for this every increasing population of worshiper. Some have fretted there will be a great loss of Christian’s with the demise of Mark and/or the Church. I don’t think so. The church the comprises all of us will survive. The chaff will be blown away, but the church will remain.
I would speak a caution to all of us. There is much to be learn for the Mars Hill phenomena. Don’t dismiss the hunger and openness to be influenced represented in those ages 18 through 30. Invent content that is useful and distribute it freely on the web. Always incorporate creatively some explanation of the gospel at the end of every teaching session with an invitation to do business with Jesus.
Even though Mark’s portrayal of masculinity is more like a comic book superhero and women as needing to be protected and rescued his focus on young men coming into manhood richly is important. Absent fathers is epidemic. Think about what it is that has caused them not to attach to their families. Mark comes at it from the standpoint of duty and responsibility, which is mechanical, missing other primary questions, Why do some many men not attach to their families? Why do they abandon family so easily? Mark uses shame and intimidation as the means of gaining compliance, which has the appearance of working, but is not transformative in the long run, or creates other issues of abusive relationships related to power and control. In many men, the tendency is understood in the short saying, “Monkey see monkey do.” Don’t over react, young men need to mature.
I feel like I need to give attention the needs of women with equal if not more space, since women are marginalized and silenced in so many ways. But, I will leave that for another time.
I hope this will satisfy the primary curiosity of those who wonder what has happened to me. I will say, the other elder fired at the same times is a good friend and doing well.”

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/01/27/mars-hill-and-mark-driscoll-under-scrutiny-while-another-painful-story-emerges/#comment-35173
- thereformedtraveler, on January 30, 2012 at 07:03 said:
  
  Sure would like to hear more of his thoughts on, “I feel like I need to give attention the needs of women with equal if not more space, since women are marginalized and silenced in so many ways.”
  
  So glad that Brent shared this with WW…and as a mental health professional… yes, very interesting to say the least.
  
  Thank you Diane…..The Controlling, Narcissist Leader/Pastor
Diane, on January 29, 2012 at 17:34 said:

“The Gift of Discernment

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. Clairvoyant Charismatic and Mars Hill pastor Mark Driscoll pictured above, recently accepted an invitation to speak at a Doug Wilson conference in Moscow, ID, proving, without doubt, that Driscoll has no discernment. While he does claim to have visions of people having sex, which he says come from the Lord and is a miraculous work of the Holy Spirit and is something he claims is the result of having the “gift of discernment,” he evidently can’t see that the man he is speaking to above is a false teacher, schismatic, and an antichrist.

Now, maybe it’s not Mark’s fault. He says that we are to “test the spirits” and that test consists in bringing any new revelation to the elders. If the elders say it’s from God, then it is. Call it a charismatic magisterium (interestingly, not at all different from the one in Rome). Consequently, I have to think he cleared his participation in Wilson’s conference with his fellow elders which means that not one of these men has the biblical gift of discernment, otherwise they wouldn’t open the sheep under their care to a charlatan like Wilson. Frankly, at this late date even the charismatic followers of Driscoll cannot all be oblivious to the false gospel of the Federal Vision tearing up the P&R world and the role Doug Wilson continues to play as the FV’s chief spokesman and pitchman. Although, I suspect now that Driscoll has lent his celebrity to Wilson, it’s a-ok for Driscoll’s followers to get into the FV pool. Call it one more step on the road to Rome.”
http://godshammer.wordpress.com/2011/10/09/the-gift-of-discernment/

Driscoll interviewing Doug Wilson:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vEiqqfvsh0
- thereformedtraveler, on January 30, 2012 at 09:37 said:
  
  “he evidently can’t see that the man he is speaking to above is a false teacher, schismatic, and an antichrist.” Amen.
  
  I actually didn’t realize the “growth” of Mars Hill. (gasp) I hope folks will read the testimony you posted by “Bent Meyer on Sun, Jan 29 2012 at 06:06 pm
  
  “I am one of the men fired the day of Mark’s rant about two elders he felt needed to broken noses…” to compare to what’s in the videos.
  
  Thanks for these Diane!
  
  Here is Part 2 of this interview: (the link that didn’t come up before in your comment
  - Diane, on January 30, 2012 at 10:12 said:
    
    In part one at the beginning, he justifies his young elders (lol) because “it says in Ecclesiastes to shoulder the burden when you are young”… but I thought an elder meant one who is older…wise in the faith, of proven character by watching his life…etc. all the elder requirements layed out in scripture. Is that the right way–to get young elders (lol again) in charge? And he dismissed attending bible college (his words) because it leads to too much thinking, which equals being too idealistic, which leads to criticizing other men’s work, which leads
    to not doing your own work. His opinion only…(sifting through the straw too)…but he sure makes it appear so biblically unquestionable and gospelly sound.
  - thereformedtraveler, on January 30, 2012 at 16:11 said:
    
    One qualification for elder is “not a novice”…just saying that because these guys haven’t even had time to meet the qualifications/requirements. “one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?” (of course we know that’s not talking about Patriarchy (Jesus defines “hegeomai” specifically as service to others–rather than “authority
    over” others….but another subject!!, another time, another place, just had to put that in)…. but most of these guys are just getting married, just starting out raising families. Time to prove a sterling character? I know many would disagree here and point to Samuel, David etc. I’d say this isn’t what we are talking about here with these churches ‘pumping out’ these young guys to go plant churches, boom, they have instant large?…..well nuff said, I guess
    
    “ And he said unto them, The kings of
    the Gentiles exercise lordship over them;
    and they that exercise authority upon
    them are called benefactors. But ye shall
    not be so: but he that is greatest among
    you, let him be as the younger; and he
    that is chief (hegeomai), as he that doth
    serve.” (Luke 22:25-26)
    
    Bible College….yes, agree, lots of opinion there. So just this training under Driscoll?
- thereformedtraveler, on January 30, 2012 at 16:34 said:
  
  At one point I thought Doug was going to start singing the Beatles “Magical Mystery Tour”, since he said a couple of times that the world is a magical place (referring to weird things ‘happen’.) I always shake my head when it’s brought up, “take it to the elders and see what they think after they have prayed and thought about whether of not it is a word from God.” Vineyard has done this for years. That really clinches it!!! This is most everyone’s answer now, to…”yea it WAS or CAN be out of control in the Charismatic world, but WE REALLY check and see if it is from God. This is the ‘credible’, way of doing things”, so they say. Of course what we see here is 2 extremes are brought to the table and we need to come to the consensus, in the middle..be a “Normal Charistmatic”…after all isn’t that what Clavinists are really saying in the end? Just a matter of semantics. Uh huh.
  
  So much going on here in this video, thought I’d just bring that up.
  
  Appreciate you sharing these 2 videos Diane.
- Born4Battle, on January 31, 2012 at 11:53 said:
  
  I am not prepared to call Doug Wilson a charlatan, or a heretic, or anything else. I don’t know enough about FV to pass any judgments, or a brain big enough to understand some of the nuances of the discussion. If I have the opportunity, I’ll take a look at the interviews mentioned, but even then I shall reserve judgment. I’m listening to a good interview betweek Michael Horton and Doug WIlson which is presented graciously without anyone calling anyone else a heretic. It can be found here http://www.canonwired.com/resources/horton-wilson-discuss-the-federal-vision/ Click ‘Listen’.
  - dawnmarie4, on January 31, 2012 at 15:24 said:
    
    Hi Born. When I first heard of the movement, I assumed they were just a group more in involved in politics than I would like, like reconstructionists…something along those lines. The more I learned though, I found it was more than that. I have a hard time with all the ins and outs of things too. There’s just too much information. I found a site that lists the basic problems and includes what the Reformed PCA US said about the movement and I’ll put the link here too.
    
    This movement denies justification by faith alone, Christ’s active obedience, and perseverance of the saints, and holds to salvation by works such as baptismal regeneration among others.
    
    In 2002 the Reformed Presbyterian Church of the United States (RPCUS) gave the following “Call to Repentance” to those of the Federal Vision movement. This lists the movement’s main heresies.
    
    “Covenant Presbytery of the RPCUS declares that the teaching presented in the 2002 Auburn Avenue Presbyterian Pastors Conference involves a fundamental denial of the essence of the Christian Gospel in the denial of justification by faith alone.
    
    “That the teaching of the various speakers: Douglas Wilson, Steve Schlissel, John Barach, and J. Steven Wilkins, has the effect of destroying the Reformed Faith through the introduction of false hermeneutic principles; the infusion of sacerdotalism; and the redefinition of the doctrines of: the church, the sacraments, election, effectual calling, perseverance, regeneration, justification, union with Christ, and the nature and instrumentality of faith.
    
    “That the rejection of the Bible as propositional and the introduction of an illegitimate post-exilic Jewish mindset as an interpretive scheme, denies the role of Scripture in interpreting itself. This view, while affirming the written word, yet gives license to reformulate and reinterpret that word through the glasses of an unrevealed and antipropositional mindset that is closely akin to the old liberal higher criticism of the early 20th century.
    
    “That the denial of the distinction of visible and invisible church and the introduction of an historical and eschatological church, opens the door to new and mystical meanings being applied to the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper that are sacerdotal in orientation; makes justification an eschatological process instead of a definitive legal act; obscures the reality and necessity of the new birth; and corrupts Gospel preaching by eliminating the call to repentance and faith within the congregation.
    
    “That baptismal regeneration constructed upon the principle of linking the sign and the reality in effect differs little from Roman Catholicism.
    
    “That the doctrine that maintains union with Christ is an external position and place in the church confounds regeneration, union with Christ, and the outward ordinances.
    
    “That the maintenance of the language of Calvinism in these speakers is superficial and misleading: their doctrine of perseverance is made to deny effectual calling; their doctrine of corporate election is made to deny particular redemption; and the native depravity of man is made to be removed in the outward administration of water baptism which thereby sufficiently qualifies the recipient for the Lord’s Supper.
    
    “We therefore resolve that these teachings are heretical. We call these men to repentance. We call upon the church of Jesus Christ to hold these teachings in contempt. We call upon the courts of the churches that are responsible for these men to institute judicial process against them and to vindicate the honor of Christ and the truth of the Christian Gospel by bringing judgment upon them, suspending them from office, and removing them from the communion of the church should they not repent.
    
    “May God have mercy upon their souls.
    
    - Adopted unanimously by Covenant Presbytery, Reformed Presbyterian Church in the United States, June 22, 2002.”
    
    The Council of Chalcedon, “A Call to Repentance” (Cummings, GA: July/August 2002), 13.
    
    There is a chart at this link, and I’ve recreated it the best I can here in the comments sections…whew…that was rough, but hopefully you can follow it easily enough. If not, look at the chart here:
    
    http://flockalert.wordpress.com/2009/06/19/what-is-the-federal-vision-is-it-heresy/
    
    The Auburn Avenue Doctrine of Federal Vision= FV
    The Reformed Faith = RF
    
    FV: Covenant is relationship which is rooted in the relationship between the persons of the ontological trinity.
    
    RF: Covenant is an agreement. The covenant of grace is rooted in the covenant of redemption (pactum salutis).
    
    FV: Before the fall Adam was under a covenant of grace.
    
    RF: Before the fall Adam was under a covenant of works.
    
    FV: After the fall God requires a partial obedience to His law in order to be justified. This partial obedience is fulfilled by faithful Christians and results in final justification.
    
    RF: After the fall God requires a perfect and perpetual obedience to His law in thought, word and deed in order to be justified. This perfect and perpetual obedience is fulfilled by Jesus Christ and is imputed to believing sinners.
    
    FV: Jesus’ sinless life is only an example of faithfulness for His people to follow.
    
    RF: Our Lord’s sinless life is not only an example but is also a fulfillment of the covenant of works that is necessary if a believing sinner is to be declared righteous before God.
    
    FV: Christians are justified by faith and faithfulness (i.e. perseverance in personal obedience).
    
    RF: Christians are justified by faith alone apart from the works of the law.
    
    FV: Faith and obedience are necessary to obtain final justification. Faith is introspective. It is divided between Christ and the believer’s faithfulness. Obedience is a co-instrument of justification.
    
    RF: Faith is the sole instrument which lays hold of Christ and His accomplished redemption. Faith is extraspective. Obedience is a fruit of justification.
    
    FV: Faith and obedience are the same thing. Faith is complex and includes the fruits of faith.
    
    RF: Obedience flows from true faith and is distinguishable from it. Faith is simple.
    
    FV: Good works or covenantal faithfulness has an important role to play in a believer’s final justification.
    
    RF: The good works of believers are tainted with sin, are non-meritorious and onlydemonstrate the reality of saving faith.
    
    FV: Paul’s condemnation of the works of the law in relation to justification concerns only the ceremonial laws or Jewish identity markers which exclude Gentiles from the covenant.
    
    RF: Paul’s condemnation of the works of the law in relation to justification refers to the whole law: ceremonial and moral. The traditional Protestant law/gospel antithesis stands.
    
    FV: Justification refers only to the pardon of sins and not the imputation of Jesus’ active [or preceptive] obedience. Pardon is supplemented by covenant faithfulness which results in final justification.
    
    RF: Justification involves the imputation of the believing sinner’s guilt and liability of punishment to Christ on the cross and our Lord’s perfect righteousness to the believer. The good works or covenant faithfulness of the Christian has nothing to do with justification.
    
    FV: If a person does not continue in obedience the justification received when baptized is removed and the apostate person loses his salvation.
    
    RF: Because a Christian’s justification is achieved solely by Christ it can never be lost. People who apostatize never had saving faith and were never justified to begin with (1 Jn. 2:19; Mt. 7:23).
    
    FV: Sanctification if faithfully continued leads to final justification. The process which leads to justification is synergistic.
    
    RF: The moment a person is justified, the life-long process of sanctification begins. The justification of sinners is monergistic.
    
    FV: The covenant of grace includes conditions. One condition is faithful obedience or good works. The personal righteousness, obedience or good works of believers has salvific “value” (i.e. merit) before God.
    
    RF: The covenant of grace has only one condition which is faith. This faith is a gift. It is instrumental and non-meritorious. It merely grasps the person and work of Christ.
    
    FV: Since faith and obedience are the same thing and we receive glorified life in the same manner as Adam before the fall, the covenant of grace is a watered down covenant of works (i.e. a partial obedience is now required for final justification).
    
    RF: The covenant of grace is radically different from the covenant of works because Christ the second Adam fulfills the terms of the covenant in our place. People who are under the guilt and power of sin cannot achieve or even contribute to their own justification.
  - Diane, on January 31, 2012 at 16:10 said:
    
    I have found a lot of good information here Born and I have no judgement on whether he is or isn’t…these men have studied FV more than I have- to be sure. I am looking at his extrabiblical teachings.
    
    The videos are to enlighten us about Driscoll…could not care less about Wilson in these particular videos.
    
    http://godshammer.wordpress.com/2010/03/29/lane-keister-doug-wilson-denies-justification-by-faith-alone/
  - Diane, on January 31, 2012 at 16:21 said:
    
    This is what I am finding FV teaches:
    
    According to Leithart the “obedience of faith” is not the simple act of believing the truth of the Gospel, it is the combination of doing the law by “grace through faith” and this, says Leithart, is the operating principle in “every covenant” (emphasis Leithart’s). This is the same principle Leithart’s employer, Doug Wilson, affirmed in his shrill polemic against the Christian faith; Reformed Is Not Enough: Recovering the Objectivity of the Covenant. According to Wilson, “breaking covenant occurs because of unbelief, lack of faith, and because of lack of good works” (134), and fulfilling the conditions of the covenant occurs by faith and good works. Leithart agrees. Good works are required in order to be saved both before and after the fall. Similarly, saving faith is not altogether passive “receiving and resting on him and his righteousness,” but consists in the combination of “trust in God the http://godshammer.wordpress.com/page/2/Savior” along with our ongoing “obedience and loyalty to God.” Calling works non-meritorious is misleading. Whether they’re meritorious or not, works are still works. Further, this combination of works and faith can only save provided they “perseveres until the end,” or in what Federal Visionists call “final justification” according to works.
  - Born4Battle, on January 31, 2012 at 18:13 said:
    
    At one site for understanding FV, I found this:
    
    I. What Federal Vision Theology Is
    
    ◦an emphasis on biblical definitions
    ◦an emphasis on the external Covenant: a different definition of “Christian”
    ◦an emphasis on strong church authority
    ◦an emphasis on the sacraments, particularly baptism
    ◦another aspect to the church: a global ecclesiology
    ◦another aspect to election
    
    II. What Federal Vision is NOT:
    
    ◦salvation by works
    ◦justification by works
    ◦baptismal regeneration
    ◦a denial of assurance of salvation
    ◦The New Perspective on Paul
    ◦a denial of classic Reformed theology as found in the Westminster or Heidelberg
    ◦a denial of the imputation of Christ’s righteousness
    ◦heresy taught by men who have been tried in an ecclesiastical court
  - Born4Battle, on January 31, 2012 at 18:39 said:
    
    I’ve connected to some sources, you links included trying to find objective analysis with some of the name-calling, etc. I’m seeing in some places. Found a 50 page refutation by Brian Schwertly here:
    
    http://www.reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/A%20Refutation%20of%20the%20Auburn%20Avenue%20Theology.htm
  - Diane, on January 31, 2012 at 19:37 said:
    
    When I was looking into Doug Wilson 4 months ago, I came across his book, Reformed Is Not Enough, which I read and will link to below. One can read the whole thing free online at this link. Nothing like learning from the master of philosophy wordsmithy himself, right? I think it would be good to read.It is not very long. From the book:
    
    “The Bible says that the just shall live by faith, but this entails the fact that the just shall live. What analogy shall we use? Faith as the starting gun of a race makes us fall into the Galatian error. Faith as the foundation makes us think there are parts of the building that are supported ultimately by faith but are not themselves faith. All such illustrations set us up for a trap–law and gospel divisions or grace and works divisions. But we cannot divide the question of life and body the same way. Life permeates the whole man, and if it does not, then we do not have a man.”
    
    Douglas Wilson, Reformed is not Enough: Recovering the Objectivity of the Covenant (Moscow, ID: Canon Press, 2002), 42, 43.
    
    http://www.ntslibrary.com/Images/ReformedIsNotEnough.pdf
  - Born4Battle, on February 1, 2012 at 05:00 said:
    
    Thanks for all the links. Am listening to a series of teachings by Brian Schwerrtly designed for ‘Joe the plumber’. My gut feeling is that we have another encroaching of works into our justification, which is Rome’s error, the Mormon error (although they don’t even have the same God, and also the error of Protestants that we are saved by faith but must ‘do’ inorder to stay saved. Same old lie in different clothes.
Born4Battle, on January 29, 2012 at 07:51 said:

I think what we see all over the church, whether ‘Reformed’ or not, is what Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians. It’s following people. We also see in these churches, a LOT of young people, who are the most suceptible. Then we have victims who decide to tell the whole unbelieving world what it loves to hear to continue in their rebellion against the God who made them. Leaders in the ‘church’ misuse scripture though they should know better and victims ‘share’ because they have been hurt but without a lot of scripture knowledge themselves.

It’s a huge mess and the enemy has a field day. I find the actions of ‘spiritual abusers’ reprehensible, but at the same time some of the sharing of the victims perhaps not at Biblical as it might be.

I’ve read both parts and some of the other links provided in posts and approach similar situations in my own ‘travels’ with much prayer. I will say that I am more appreciative of doctrinally and biblically sound ‘heirarchies’ that place Pastors under accountability.

I I sound a bit puzzeled and confused, I probably am.
- Born4Battle, on January 29, 2012 at 11:46 said:
  
  I should have explained my ‘puzzlement. It’s not about the posting of the issue, but about the most God-glorifying manner of handling these issues. I know me – not as well as God knows me, but I know enough of me to be cautions about my initial ‘gut’ feelings, and excising that which is from my flesh.
  - dawnmarie4, on January 29, 2012 at 21:50 said:
    
    You know Born, in this age of knowlege and the ability to make things known to anyone and everyone at the touch of an “enter” key or a submit button, I can’t imagine the confusion nor the type of information we are bombarded by is going to get any easier. It’s harder to think before we speak you know? Finding any sort of Biblical guidelines on how to deal with very public ministries is hard also. There was a time when local churches were closed to the general public and what went on inside them was unknown…yet now, ministries are so massive and books, websites, conferences, streaming sermons, radio, video etc. almost makes it seem like these men are not interested in a closed system for anything besides protecting themselves from the public finding out about their indiscretions…other than that, they seem to want to be larger than life. When you put yourself out there…well, both your good and bad tend to be exposed to anyone who wants to “find out” more about you.
    
    I guess we could say that Information is both a blessing and a curse. Not sure what the answer is to all of this. For me, I guess I just take what I’ve learned and use it for my own edification as far as helping me to decided whether or not I want to listen to the preaching of certain men or have any part in supporting their ministry financially. There’s so much to learn and I appreciate knowing who not to waste my time on I guess. I tend to be a throw the baby out with the bathwater type person when it comes to ministers who seem to be false and try to take warnings to heart. My time is very valuable.
    
    I think we all need to be cautious about our initial gut feelings. I know I certainly do. It’s a struggle for me to keep my emotions at bay sometimes. I personally don’t air my dirty laundry and I certainly don’t think we should do “evil” so that good may come…but since we can’t judge motives of those telling their stories, I guess we can’t assume that the only reason these people are warning is out of the desire to somehow vindicate themselves and cause hurt to those who hurt them. In the Bret Detwiler case, I do believe his motives were very impure. I would like to give the benefit of the doubt, but in his case, I can’t. I do see him as a disgruntled sin sniffer who didn’t get his way. With this Andrew kid, I think he just wants to tell his story to warn others of what he went through at Mars Hill. He has absolutely nothing to gain by it you know? He’s just a kid and he was run through the ringer in a very unbiblical, detestable way. And yet, I don’t know what the most Biblical way of getting his story out would be. That’s where my confusion is in this case. How do you deal with this stuff in the age of knowledge?
    
    You had mentioned that alot of these folks are younger and don’t have a good understanding of scripture themselves. That’s exactly what I thought as I read Sophia’s story and her mention of the Beth Moore Bible study for example. It seems that in certain situations we have the blind leading the blind I suppose. I feel the same way about Wartburg watch as far as the theology I see coming out of there…and I’m sure Jo has the same concerns I do as do others who follow the site. Wartburg does an effective job at exposing wrongness, but not so good of a job at teaching biblical lessons as to how things are supposed to be done. I’m hoping I am making sense here.
    
    I personally have always stayed away from teachers like Driscoll and CJ Mahaney for reasons other than those being brought out now about the authoritative dictatorship type ministries they lead, but this current round of exposures does help explain some of the red flags that I had in the past about them besides just the false doctrine that I have felt they preach to the masses. That’s not to say however that I haven’t been deceived by other false teachers which don’t need to be listed here. We all have our deceptions I guess and God allows it for a reason and He takes us out of them when He feels the time is right.
    
    My hope is that lessons will be learned and Biblical truth will be taught, using scriptural support and that maybe folks at places like SGM and Mars Hill will learn to use the Bible as their authority rather than the man in the pulpit. We’ve made celebritites of some of these men, and it’s our own faults. We are the ones who support them financially, we are the ones who demand their services, who buy their books, attend their conferences, listen to their sermons and if we would all stop doing that, they wouldn’t have a ministry. At anyrate, the wheat will grow together with the tares till the end of time and I suspect there will be more and more of this exposing until all of thes pastors and their ministries are exposed for what they are so that the elect can see and escape deception. The tares will never see and will continue in their support unfortunately. The outside world will never be able to discern real christianity from fake.
Ray, on January 28, 2012 at 21:44 said:

@ Dawnmarie

I couldn’t quite believe what I was reading there about Driscoll , but then, we are talking about Driscoll. . Since when has preaching been reduced to a trite competition based on a popular television show, …… oh yeah, since Driscoll decided it was a good thing to do. I’ve got news for him , and that is that some of the best preaching i have encountered has been from men who probably would have failed on all points, but have recognised something that Driscoll fails on , and that is that inspired preaching comes via the Holy Spirit , and not smooth talkin , well dressed , entertaining pulpit pimps.
- dawnmarie4, on January 30, 2012 at 10:26 said:
Pain vs. Reputation | Faithful Emphasis, on January 28, 2012 at 15:14 said:

[...] [...]
dawnmarie4, on January 28, 2012 at 14:34 said:

I’m just now starting to learn about this. I will follow the links as I get a chance. I suppose we all knew this would be coming…unfortunately.

I wanted to put on this page this list of things that the ol’ cussing sex pastor looks for in a preacher too.

By Mark Driscoll on Nov 07, 2011 in Preaching

We’ve got a preachers’ Qualifying Day coming up at Mars Hill Church that I’m excited about. Currently, we have 50 or so elders at Mars Hill and maybe that many more in training. Some of the men are sensing a call to preach and cover the Sundays when I’m out of the pulpit.

So, we thought we’d have some fun with it and have a day when they each take the stage at Mars Hill Ballard to preach. We’ll give each preacher a different text one week in advance. They’ll show up to preach, and we’ll evaluate them.

And, you are welcome to come sit in if you like for all or part of the day. It’s all going down Tuesday, November 15 from 2 p.m. to 5 p.m. at Mars Hill Ballard.

Only three men will preach this round, but there will be other rounds forthcoming. This round’s contestants will be Pastor Thomas Hurst of Mars Hill Bellevue, Pastor Scott Mitchell of Mars Hill Everett, and Pastor AJ Hamilton of Mars Hill Albuquerque. They will have 30 minutes each with a shot clock and buzzer. They can bring only a Bible with them on stage.

This will be fun…for some of us. For our Mars Hill version of American Idol for preachers, I’ll play the part of Simon Cowell, minus the deep v-neck and British accent. Joining me on the judging panel will be Dr. Justin Holcomb who runs Resurgence, Pastor Scott Thomas who runs Acts 29, and Pastor Dave Bruskas, the executive elder who oversees all our churches.

In anticipation of this event, I made a list of 16 things that I’m looking for in a preacher or teacher’s sermon:

1. Tell me about Jesus. Connect it all to Jesus. If you don’t mention Jesus a lot, you need to do something other than preach. And tell me that Jesus is a person, not just an idea. Help me to not only know him but to also like him.

2. Have one big idea. Hang all your other ideas on the one big idea. Otherwise, you will lose me or bore me.

3. Get my attention in the first 30 seconds without being gimmicky. Get to work. Don’t “blah blah blah” around, chitchat, or do announcements. That will make me start checking my phone. Get my attention, and let’s get to work.

4. Bring me along theologically and emotionally. Preaching is not a commentary. Commentaries are boring for even nerds to read. Your job is to do the nerd work and bring it to life. Raise your voice, grab my affections, and bring the living Word.

5. Make me like you, trust you, and respect you so that I can’t dismiss you. If you want me to follow you, you have to get me to that point.

6. Avoid Christian jargon and explain your terms. The average person has no idea what fellowship means, or even God for that matter. So, tell us what you’re talking about and don’t assume we have your vocabulary.

7. Don’t have points as much as a direction and destination. Take me somewhere. Take me to a place of conviction, compassion, conversion, etc.

8. Don’t show me how smart you are, because it makes me feel dumb. I assume you’re smart since you’re standing up talking and we’re all sitting down listening. If you quote words in some language I don’t know, or quote dead guys to show you’re a genius, that makes me feel dumb, which doesn’t serve me well. Don’t come off like that kid in school that the rest of us wanted to give a wedgie to every time they raised their hand.

9. Invite lost people to salvation. Some people in the seats aren’t Christians. So, tell them how to become one. Talk about sin, Jesus, and repentance. At some point in every sermon just do that. If you do, people will bring lost friends. Don’t be a coward.

10. Whether it feels like a wedding or a funeral, be emotionally engaging and compelling. Some sermons are a funeral—convicting, deep, hard hitting, and life shattering. Other sermons are a wedding—exciting, compelling, encouraging, and motivating. Pick an emotional path. Have an emotional trajectory to the sermon, not just a theological point. If you pass the audition and get to preach publicly, have the entire service flow emotionally. If we do wedding songs after a funeral sermon, I’m emotionally confused. Likewise, if we’re singing melancholy hymns after a big motivational sermon, I’m also emotionally confused. So, you and the guy in skinny jeans with the guitar have got to get this figured out together.

11. Look like someone who has it together from clothes to haircut to overall presentation. You don’t need to be a model, but you should look presentable. If you have bed-head, your fly open, keep losing your place in your notes, your shoe is untied, your mic battery dies, and you say, “Um,” a lot because you’re unprepared, I may feel sorry for you but I’m not following you because you don’t seem to have a clue where you are going.

12. Tell the truth and don’t be a coward. Look me in the eye and don’t flinch. Don’t apologize for what God’s Word says—just say it. Say it like you mean it. Say it like it’s true. Sure, I may despise you, but at least I’ll know what God said. Get over your fear of man and assume that I may just hate you.

13. If you get lost or mess up, make a joke about yourself and keep me interested. I know at some point you’re going to mess up. The Bible is perfect, you aren’t. If I can laugh at you while laughing with you, I’ll trust you.

14. Don’t just preach repentance but also practice it. Don’t talk about everyone else’s sin and never your own. Don’t tell me all the victories you’ve had or that your sin was a long time ago. Jesus is the hero, not you. I don’t trust smug, religious folks who preach how great they are and how I can become like them. It’s smarmy.

15. Answer some objections. You know how most of us are going to push back, question, disagree, or wiggle off the conviction hook. So, anticipate those objections and answer some. Brawl with me a bit, show me you can go a few rounds, get me in a corner, and work me over until I give in and obey God. But, you have to work at it.

16. “It” is the presence and power of the Holy Spirit in you and through you. I’m looking to see if you have it. I can’t explain it, but I know it when I see it.
- thereformedtraveler, on January 28, 2012 at 16:13 said:
  
  Heartbreaking stories and some really good reporting in those links.
  
  As far as Mars Hill and that qualifying day….yea, now isn’t that fun?
  
  # 11 “Look like someone who has it together from clothes to haircut to overall presentation…”…so he means like this?

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