The Wartburg Watch has an excellent article, An Ultrasound of Abuse, dealing with domestic abuse based on this comment from John Piper’s video below. (Does a Wife Submit to Abuse?)
“If it’s not requiring her (a wife) to sin but simply hurting her, then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season, and she endures perhaps being smacked for one night and then she seeks help from the church.”
John Piper
*****From comment section of TWW: (I urge everyone to read all the comments to this article)
“….I have been in or around the Reformed, Patriarchal, Reconstructionist, and Homeschooling movements (and their various combinations) for nearly 20 years, so I am not speaking as merely an outside observer. I wish what I was proposing were not true, but I have personally witnessed it too many times to count. Reliable third-party evidence is legion to anyone who looks.
If a pastor confronts domestic abuse (or even identifies a behavior as abuse), it is essentially a challenge to the authority of a father/husband in his home. It means that there is an external standard by which the exercise of domestic authority can and should be judged and to which a man can be held accountable.
But this would also mean that their own use of authority in both the ecclesiastical and domestic spheres is subject to, and can and should be measured against an external standard.
Now, this is the one thing that must *never* be allowed to happen under any circumstance! It’s kind of a perverse version of “Judge not, lest ye be judged”. It is also why elders and pastors brought in to address an abuse allegation between a pastor and some part of his flock will inevitably, like clock-work, find in favor of the pastor, even in egregious and obvious examples of abuse.
Put bluntly, when you believe that the exercise of authority is the most vital element of the pastorate (or parenthood, husbandhood, society, etc.), then the exercise of authority must be protected at all costs.
Naturally, this is the the opposite of what the NT actually teaches about authority and its exercise. But that should come as no surprise to anyone who follows this or similar blogs….” (Comment by ThatBigDog)
*****“One thing to remember about the Piper video is that is was to answer the question, what should a wife’s submission look like in the face of abuse, or some such rot.
The question needed to be questioned, not answered.
When a husband is abusing, why should the wife, or the pastor, or ANYONE be concerned with whether she’s submitting or not?
The very fact that this question is being asked is proof positive that there is an over emphasis on the structure of marriage and the importance of wifely submission. It is an idolotry of form. The form and structure of the marriage is given more importance than justice and mercy.
There are far more verses warning about the judgement upon the strong who oppress the weak than there are on the form and structure and marriage. And yet the form and structure of marriage is far more important than justice for the down trodden to men like Piper.
Piper’s worship of the form, of husband and authority and wife submission, makes him desire to preserve the form at all costs and makes him believe that a wife verbally bowing and scraping to her husband is a beautiful and divine display of femininity, thereby maintaining the form in the presence of abuse. He looks upon it as a beautiful and great sacrifice on the part of a woman to maintain the form when going through the fire of abuse. I don’t think he’s saying it is required so much as he’s saying, any woman who can do this, maintain her submission, maintain her part in supporting the divine structure, that woman is to be praised and held up as a divine picture of biblical womanhood.
It is nothing short of sick.” (comment by Mara)
Filed under: Domestic Violence/Child Abuse Tagged: | abusive churches, abusive husband, Christian Patriarchy Movement, Council on Manhood and Womanhood, domestic abuse, homeschooling movements, hyper-authoritarian pastors, john piper, Paige Patterson, patriarchy, Reconstructionism, spouse abuse, submission, The Wartburg Watch, Vision Forum
Thanks for posting Jo. Disturbing to say the least. As a health professional who saw much of the results of abuse being admitted to my hospital floor…and with a husband whose career is in law enforcement, we have seen our share of it.
Victoria–
Your comments are so true and they blessed and encouraged me. IMO, part of this kind of thinking comes from the “I am unworthy–I don’t deserve” teachings coming from men like CJ Mahaney, where, in the SGM world, there are no victims–because, well, it could have been worse…and you are an unworthy sinner, and the perp said he was sorry–so you have to forgive-if you don’t forgive then you are even a worse sinner than the perp is–so be grateful for what you get– kind of thinking. It is a distortion of the wonderful and blessed fact that we are no longer unworthy-God has called us and saved us and we are His precious adopted children. Sinning still…yes, but clothed with Christ’s righteousness and acceptable. How can a co-heir with Christ be unworthy?
Persis commented– where can one go if not their church? I agree the church should be a haven, but since these kinds of over the top submission teachings (btw I am not against a wife submitting to her husband) are gaining popularity thanks to popular men like Mark Driscoll, I think the churches are not going to be the ones able to help…well, help the wife anyway. Besides…hard as it is to deal with…abuse is a crime and for many men a pattern of behavior. No one really wants to stare at its ugly face or admit it even exists (must be the wife doing something wrong to set off her husband like that or not submitting the right way sbecause she causes the anger to begin with), so to rationalize it away by thinking–the wife needs to change. So–it is easier to counsel the wife then deal with the horror.
I don’t hear the “husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her” being preached by those associated with the CBMW (like, for one example, Bruce Ware-I have been listening) nearly as much as the wives–submit part. To use the popular T4g TGC member CJ Mahaney SGM logic–the abused would be told…well, men aren’t perfect, we all are works in progress, we (believers) are all unworthy–you are too—you have much more than you deserve–so just be grateful God doesn’t strike you dead this very instant–love covers a multitude of sins–a man is won by his wife’s godly behavior–(and all number of single verses) used as a bandaid covering a cavernous wound while justice takes a back seat to this idol of forgiveness. Crazy thinking in this SGM that is so promoted.
I do pray that Piper has no blood on his hands from a wife who took his advice to “get whacked for a night” only to have the unthinkable occur.
Thanks Diane-This whole post has got me thinking-in a deeply convicting way-of what I need to be doing more to help young women in abusive situations.
I think the first thing I may do is write a book titled “Your man made you an Excellent wife-mine made me a shrew” lol. All kidding aside-I am sick to death of women who write 200 page books to other women instructing them to put up with abuse-when they themselves have no idea what that is even like. Martha Peace needs to walk in the shoes of some women I know-then MAYBE she would have a right to speak.It is the same thing with someone like Nancy Leigh Demoss-she makes herself some kind of authority on women’s issues and marriage-and I don’t even think she is even married.
I am still reeling from this whole clip from Piper-to tell a woman whose husband wants her to participate in group sex(that was his example) to say “honey I would love to be able to follow your lead”–when what she should be doing is hauling him before the elders for Church discipline. I cannot believe a Pastor said that-especially one that thousands listen to.
Thanks ladies-you have helped me see this as exactly what it is-a justice and mercy issue to the downtrodden-beat up- and heartbroken woman-who does not have a Spiritual partner-but rather a spiritual tormenter!
You have blessed me!
I am very disturbed by Piper’s response. A husband who is abusing his wife whether physically or emotionally is certainly not modeling Christ’s sacrificial love for his church. If a wife cannot go to the church for help, who can she go to?
It’s an inconsistent idea that a wife’s submission is able to change her husband’s behavior. Doesn’t our reformed theology teach that the Holy Spirit is the only one able to convict of sin, regenerate, and sanctify? Submission in an abusive situation also sends a message to any children that it is okay for a man to treat his wife that way.
“Doesn’t our reformed theology teach that the Holy Spirit is the only one able to convict of sin, regenerate, and sanctify?”…not if one is following the teachings of patriarchy group and those among the stricter proponents of complementarianism and submission theology Sure they will ‘say’ this (above comment you made) but in reality have virtually stripped women of their priesthood of all believers, for instance. It’s nuts out there, Persis! We have Bruce Wear, running around with his, “that women often bring abuse on themselves by refusing to submit”, message along with a hoard of others excusing abusive male authority. I’m very disturbed by Piper’s comment as well. But like I was mentioning to Victoria, he didn’t just pop up with this (and his group sex?????) advise. Method to his madness. (See comment to Victoria) Oh, yes, yes…and the children. My goodness. Sad, sad business. Did I just say business?..yea, come to think of it, much of it is just that. (Thinking of Vision Forum) So how many beatings or how much verbal abuse to we take during this season? The theology behind the curtain of these groups has laid the groundwork for an epidemic of domestic violence in the church (and so popular in our Reformed camp) As one blog puts it, A perfect family, a godly life…but at who’s expense?…I know that will make many people hopping mad, but anyone who has been under these abusive religious systems will understand that quote perfectly!
Thank you Persis, so glad that you chimed in here and one not advocating this craziness we see going on…or trying to defend it!! Defending it can’t be done and no one could or would even try unless they are brainwashed by that system. Lord help those caught up in it.
Hi-
I have been married to the same dear man for almost 46 years-he is disabled and very ill-and he gets quite abusive at times. I have had his doctor tell me not to put up with his stuff. I love the man and will stick with him no matter what-but I will not take the abuse of a so-called Christian toward me. I tell him when he is abusive-and I have elder support to even leave for a day or 2 when I must!
Please don’t be telling young women to put up with ungodly behavior out of their men-Dr piper-that is not what the scripture teaches about confronting a sinning brother. Treat a sinning hubby like a sinning brother-if he is a Christian:treat him like a heathen-if he is not a Christian.
Whatever you tell young women-please don’t tell them treating an abuser with tolerance is godly.
So well said Victoria. Glad to hear that you have a place to run to when you have to leave for a few days. Also so good to know that the elders aren’t ignoring your situation and telling you to stay and submit but are supportive of your situation. Some of these leaders are telling these women that the reason that their husband has to resort to abuse is that she isn’t submissive enough. Can you imagine? Appreciate you sharing a bit of your story.
May I also add that the Church is very often NOT a safe place for a woman to go. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard this kind of advice given to women-but I can’t remember one time-no-not one-when the sinning husband was reminded that he is to love his wife as Christ loved the Church-and gave himself for her. I want to hear the pulpits across this land teaching husbands what it means to be ready to love their wives enough to die for them. Honestly-I have never found a woman that I have counseled who would not follow a godly-loving-wife honoring husband.
We did the Martha Peace book “The Excellent Wife” with our women at Church last year. I had to go to my Pastor on several occasions and tell him I could not teach what was in the book, because it was wrong and very hurtful. I am grateful for my Pastor-who listens to me and can see when something is wrong.As you have stated-many Reformed Pastors do not see this. My opinion of that book-it hit the trash when I was done with it. That book alone has done more to foster abuse of women than almost anything I have ever read.
I have a blog-and I have never shared anything about my private life there-this is the first time I have shared a part of my story-I love my husband and want to honor him-but life is what it is sometimes-and when older women are not honest about their struggles-younger women are not given hope-and not helped.
God bless you-I pray you are heard!
I was reading an older article from The Wartburg Watch when they first put info up about this video with Piper and wanted to share this comment by Lydia:
“Note in the video that early on Piper sets up a false dichotomy of “two masters” for the wife so she is constantly in a situation of trying to make sure she is obeying the right master at the right time.
What lies about our relationship with Christ! After all, we have the indwelling Holy Spirit. Even females….Mr. Piper.
Note how Piper does not mention what to do about the husband. Know why? Because they believe that only God deals directly
with males on such things. Whereas God deals with women through males.
I am telling you there is deep seated abherrant doctrine and cultic thinking here. They have elevated this to salvic doctrine. Notice that Piper hints at this in the beginning of the video.
We must get the word out about the abherrant doctrinal teaching that undergirds his false teaching about our Lord and His Word on this video.” (end of quote)
Amen to that!!
Victoria, you say that “the Church is very often NOT a safe place for a woman to go..” I couldn’t agree more. Especially when we have books such as Martha Peace, very familiar with the book. Yes, proper place for her book, the trash. (putting a recap of her teachings at end of comment) But hey, she is on The Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, so must be ok, right?!! Thank the Lord that you have a Pastor that will (and can) listen to you, a woman. That’s pretty amazing since we have so many in the Patriarchy Movement. etc., telling us that women have no business doing things such as you described. I urge everyone to research what Bruce Ware, Vision Forum guys, The Council on Biblical Manhood & Womanhood, and SO many others are really teaching, advocating. Some think that Piper “just came up” with this answer. There is a method to his madness.
We have one of the biggest cover ups occurring right before our eyes regarding wife/women abuse and child molestation going on in Sovereign Grace Ministries. There is such a ‘good ‘ol boys club’ protecting them and so much propaganda and disinformation to pull the wool over eyes. (SGM uses the same tactics as The Shepherding Movement..because they ARE TSM!!) We need to shine a light in these dark, dark places.
You mention about having a blog and how you have never shared anything about your private life. I know for myself, I’ve never shared publicly anything about my years of being in The Shepherding Movement, Quiverfull Movement, Gothardism, or other abusive systems. (close to 40 years of it….as and adult, btw) As you, am an older woman (ancient!! lol) and your comment of helping the younger,…”and when older women are not honest about their struggles-younger women are not given hope-and not helped.”.. encourages me. Very hard, though- to share, I know I must suffer- still, some level of guilt and shame, for one reason, of raising 3 of my 4 children under these systems…or I would have shared it all by now! I have religious/spiritual abuse help plastered all over the blog, but mums the word from any personal word, so far!!! I see so many younger families being deceived by all of the same things (nothing is new!) as I was. Breaks my heart. And folks think I’m being divisive and hard of heart and down right mean when I expose one of these religious abusive systems on the blog…uh…no.
Probably the longest comment I’ve EVER posted
, lots of rambling there!!!, but will end with saying God Bless you Victoria and again thank you for visiting TRT and leaving such wonderful comments!
For those who need a recap and Martha Peace, here is an excellent summary:…read it and weep for your sisters in Christ…
The God Card:
For example, in the popular book, “The Excellent Wife,” by Martha Peace (1999), a woman learns that,
“Your husband is the one in charge. Being in charge does not mean he has to do everything. It does mean that he is responsible for managing his home. A part of that managing is delegating responsibility to others, including you.” (p. 52)
Martha Peace goes on to tell women that their role is to submit to their husbands authority and, “use your energies to glorify him” (p. 53).
How does a woman glorify her husband? The author explains that a husband is glorified when a wife obeys him, and goes on at length to describe the many ways a wife can obey his commands, seek to further his goals and defer to her husband’s will.
The Excellent Wife reads,
“You may be smarter, wiser, or more gifted than your husband, but you are still to respect the position God has given him. You are like the soldier who stands at attention, salutes, and says, ‘Yes, Sir!’ to his superior officer….
“Probably the most helpful thing you can do is ask your husband to hold you accountable for showing respect to him. If he agrees, he would, then, point out your disrespectful words, tone or countenance. …How willing you are to let your husband help you in this way will reflect your level of maturity and commitment to the Lord Jesus Christ.” (p. 109, 111)
I know that for me, there was no way I could help my husband feel respected. Nothing was ever enough. Disagreement, lack of adoration, opinions that differed—all of those things were considered by him to be disrespectful.
For so many years, because of counsel like the above passage, I felt like such a horrible wife. After all, a wife is supposed to see to it that her husband is respected, and no matter how hard I tried, it seemed that I couldn’t even do that one very basic thing right. It never occured to me, until years later, that perhaps the problem wasn’t with me…
Many complementarians fuss that some of us have taken wifely submission and made it into a salvation issue. Many of us have responded by saying, “Um…yeah?” The fact is, we were taught (and not by a few oddballs but by mainstream evangelical books like the one I am quoting from in this post) that wifely submission was indicative of our relationship with God.
The emphasis in the following excerpt is from the book’s author, not me:
“…Submission to her husband is the heart of God for the Christian wife. It is so important to God that He made submission to her husband a manifestation of “walking with the Lord,” “being in the will of God,” and “being filled with the Holy Spirit” (Ephesians 5:15-18).”
When you are a fundamentalist woman who loves God and wants to walk in His will, and you have a husband who does not ask you to “sin” per se (since things like giving you a list of how you have to clean the kitchen before you’re allowed to go to bed—- or how many children you will or won’t have, or what outside-the-home activities you may or may not participate in—– are things not technically in any list of “sins” in the Bible), what do you make of the above advice to wives?
You make of it exactly what the author teaches you to. Your role is to submit joyfully. If there is a problem anywhere, it’s with you. After all, aren’t YOU the one who feels privately humiliated by being treated like a child, who feels weighed down with the demands of perfection instead of joyfully accepting them as God’s will for your life? If the marriage has any problem at all, it is probably yours.
After all, that’s what your husband keeps telling you. The books join with his voice. In a very real sense, your husband becomes your god, a mediator between the woman and God.
“Viewing life through God’s sovereignty and goodness is seeing every tiny detail in life as arranged for you by God. there is no such thing as fate, luck, or chance. God has purpose in your every circumstance (including your husband’s decisions). God channels the king’s hearts, and He can certainly channel your husband’s heart. God is in control, whether you like it or not! (p. 179).
“Rebellion is a very serious sin. If you disobey your husband, you are indirectly shaking your fist at God. …When you rebel against your husband’s authority, you are grieviously sinning. It is a frightening thing.” (p. 181)
People wonder why abused wives in the patriarchal system don’t just “get out.” It’s simple. Because they only rarely are aware that they are being abused in the first place. With advice like the above, how would a woman be able to tell? How would those she goes to in her church, asking for help, be able to tell?
http://nolongerquivering.com/2010/02/11/the-god-card-thoughts-from-the-excellent-wife/