*Glenn E. Chatfield at The Watchman’s Bagpipes analyzes Bill Gothard:
Analyzing Bill Gothard’s IBLP Basic Seminar Textbook
Just one of the many problematic areas cited:
p.7 Item 4. [Gothard teaches] “The very foundation of the church…is the family.” This is wrong – the foundation of the church is Christ!
In the future Glen will post his analysis of the Advanced Seminar textbook, as well as some analysis of “Character Sketches”, be sure and keep an eye out for that.
*Dawn, over at Take A Look , has put up a video dealing with The Patriarchy Movement:
The Development and Practice of Patriarchy: Cure for Cultural Decline or New, Gnostic Disease?
OR Can view video HERE with complete bio references
*Also, Dawn has provided additional information for us about Patriarchy and the Family Integrated Church Emphasis
Excerpt from article explains:
“The FIC movement is built upon the the principles of patriarchy. Patriarchy is a Greek word which means “father rule.” In essence, patriarchy teaches that the male in the family (i.e. the progenitor or originator of the family) has the inherent authority over – and the power to rule – the entire family. In short, patriarchy is the belief in male dominance. Bill Gothard spiritualized patriarchy by proposing what he called “an umbrella of protection” provided by the father for the entire family, and any family member who remains under the “authority” of the father is protected from harm. Gothard’s views express the the extreme logical conclusions of patriarchy within Christian circles….”
*Closingstages has a wonderful article encouraging us Take Heed! In this post called, The Great Divide: Taking a Closer Look a Who’s Really Causing the Divisions in the Body/Church? Besides dealing with the ones that are really causing division, we read:
“….Not only are we to weigh carefully, examine, one translation says “as in the forensic sense. “ We’ve all seen the shows today that have forensic teams that investigate and examine everything no matter how small or insignificant in order to get to the truth. It’s a lot of very hard work at times, most times actually, but the rewards we get out of it are beyond any labor or effort that we put into it. THE TRUTH, and anytime we discover truth, we grow and develop spiritually a little more and a little more….”
*Fernando over at Reformed- for His Glory says in, Spurgeon Is At It Again
“Who else, but the Spurg, will call someone that fails to preach sound doctrine from the pulpit a ” retailer of secondhand windbags?”
In this Lectures To His Students we find Spurgeon saying in this article….
“…..Unless we are instructive preachers, and really feed the people, we may be great quoters of elegant poetry, and mighty retailers of secondhand windbags, but we shall be like Nero of old, fiddling while Rome was burning and sending vessels to Alexandria to fetch sand for the arena while the populace starved for want of corn……”
*In the Hedge with David J talks about how Battling A False Teacher Is Not An Easy Task
“I really wish more Christians would stop and ponder Titus 1:7-16 a little more. If we accept this passage at face value, it’s easy to understand how it upsets the ecumenical “God is love” movement found in many of today’s churches. Discernment ministries are viewed negatively because they are deemed hateful and nonproductive when it comes to reaching the lost. The advice people who downplay biblical discernment generally give is,” Let God be the judge. Judge not! You are causing division! Lost people are watching us fight. You should pray for them in private and God will deal with them.”…..
*The Wartburg Watch has information up about The Washington Post Investigates Sovereign Grace Ministries
*A Partial Transcript From Covenant Life Church’s Recent Members Meeting
Kris, the owner of SGMS, says,
“Covenant Life Church recently posted a partial transcript from their August 17 “Members Meeting.” In the interest of free discussion, I thought I would post the transcript excerpt here, along with my commentary, which appears in blue.”
*More Responses To Tim Challies Condemnation of “Christian Wikileaks”
*****SINFULLY CRAVING TRUTH: FAMILIES OF SGM RESPOND:
(Please read article in full to see pastor’s and SGMS comments-excerpt below) (ed note: Yes folks, you read it correctly….need answers?…Now accused of “Sinfully Craving Answers”….)
by Dee of The Wartburg Watch
I am leaving to bring my final child off to college. It is a bittersweet time. I wanted to continue in the series on psychology and the church but I have received some correspondence and would like to do some more reading in order to adequately present the various forms of “Biblical” counseling. So, we have decided to do this post instead.
People ask us, “Why SGM?” We follow their story with fascination because we believe that it offers all churches, in this day of the post evangelical thicket, many lessons. This group has ties to the old shepherding movement which did not die but merely changed it’s theological shell. This story involves authoritarianism, hubris, pedophilia, spiritual abuse and hundreds, if not thousands, of bodies left in the dust while leaders sought more and more recognition on the world stage.
Well, once you hit the stage, you have to be able to stand the perspectives of those viewing your play. You cannot say “Look at this” and “Don’t look at that.” People look and they see what is obvious to them. You cannot control them so it is important that you are able to stand the scrutiny. If you feel you need to hide it from observation, then you probably shouldn’t be doing it.
One of the most bizarre statements that I have ever read is this. When people have quizzed their SGM pastors for answers to legitimate questions they are dismissed with this statement. “You are sinfully craving answers.”
What? Is not Jesus the Truth? Did He not put in us a desire for the truth? This has to be one of the most bizarre and abusive statements that I have ever read. And I have a suggestion. Run, as fast as you can from any man who says this to you!! This is not Christian, it is the words of men who believe they are above questioning. It is a statement left over from the shepherding movement. It is abusive and wrong. Such men do not belong in the pastorate. Period!!!
Once again, i ask our readers to understand the trials that these families has been put through at the hands of men who appear to this writer to have a low emotional quotient. Such people should not be allowed to pastor a church. Rule Number One: Find a pastor who understand the heart of Jesus. Ask yourself this. Would Jesus have ever responded as some of these men have responded?
Warning: there are some statements in here that may drive people to extreme anger. I am still coping with it myself-you will see a couple of editor’s comments. I couldn’t help myself
All men who address the church are pastors and part of leadership in this SGM church.
Go back to main article (above) to read pastor’s and SGMS comments. (Emphasis by TRT
Filed under: Week in Review/Current Issues Tagged: | False Teachers, C.H. Spurgeon, Bill Gothard, Vision Forum, patriarchy, SGM, The Wartburg Watch, SGMS, Tim Challies SGM, Family Integrated Church, The Shepherding Movement
Ladies and gents, for your perusal, I posted my analysis of Gothard’s ATI textbook
http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2011/08/bill-gothards-ati-textbook-examined.html
Thanks much Glenn, also putting up on Friday Review. Excellent job on that post! You sure brought out some ‘dillies’ on Gothard’s teachings. I pray that folks will understand the seriousness/danger of being under this type of system and see just how prevalent it is.
Some basic questions for SGM. A commenter posted this at survivors saying she had posted this same comment at the SGM blog….wondering if it would get posted or rejected.
112Tricia
August 31st, 2011 at 2:18 pm
I just posted the following questions for Mr. Harvey at:
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/Video-Answering-your-questions.aspx
It was respectfully written. Let’s see if they post it.
Thank you, Mr. Harvey. I have some questions I would appreciate seeing addressed.
Is it integrity to admit things that are now irrefutable public evidence, or would it have been integrity to admit them when they were still in the dark?
Why was the sexual abuse of children kept hush-hush until just recently?
Why have the families of those children not been personally visited by pastors in an effort to apologize and provide for financial hardships they have faced as a result? Where is the “rush to the side of the victim” that Mr. Harvey speaks of?
What processes are in place to hold pastors accountable?
Is the seeking of psychological therapy outside of SGM still discouraged or are pastors recommending outside mental health services when needed?
When Mr. Harvey used the term “loyal dissent” to describe the kind of dissent deemed appropriate concerning pastors, what is implied by the word “loyal”?
In 1 Cor. 5:12-13 a member of the church is indulging in sexual relations with a family member (incest). Paul tells the CHURCH to “Drive out the wicked person from among you.” I’d like to specifically know how SGM’s leadership plans to give the laity of the church the same voice and authority that Paul gave the early church in matters such as this.
In Mr. Mahaney’s sermon The Happiest Place on Earth, he said that the pastor’s job is DEPENDENT on how well the church members make his job a joy. Could you please explain what he meant by that?
Mr. Mahaney also said that when the church meets Christ for the first time we will all be gathered around our pastor and thanking Christ for him. Could you show me this in the scriptures please?
Thanks for your time
Good for Tricia. Excellent questions. I have not watched this video yet…incredible….C.J. says, “when the church meets Christ for the first time we will all be gathered around our pastor and thanking Christ for him.” One of the most devilish forms of manipulation tactics I’ve ever heard. Narcissistic personality disorder comes to mind, as well. Thanks once again, Diane for bringing us these comments. A behind the scenes look at The Happiest Place on Earth.
My next article, which is close to being finished, will be about various new Bibles out over the past few years, and then I’ll get back to Gothard.
This comment from the sgmsurvivors site:
“Stunned
August 27th, 2011 at 7:48 am
Buzzing Bee said,
Ray Ortlund spoke at CCK last Sunday (incidentally a very good preacher ) and spent the first 7 or 8 minutes sharing his thoughts about the evaluation. His comments included a statement along the lines of, “If CJ was my pastor, I’d get down on my knees and thank God.”
Come on, CJ fans, even you have to admit that is creepy.
BTW, isn’t this the same Ray Ortlund that was on the preliminar panel to decide whether CJ was fit or not? Hmmm, doesn’t sound all that impartial to me.
So Ray Ortlund, here’s your chance. Put your money where your mouth is. Looks like CJ will be getting a church again soon. I challenge you to leave wherever you are and start going to his church as a regular congregant. You won’t last ten years.
If you DON’T go to his church (once he regains one), then I’d say you’re a down right misleading liar. Which is it?”
I am not an Ortlund fan but would like to know the answer to that too. Why such slobbering devotion? Does he not think any of these people’s concerns are valid? (Not just Brent’s docs, but the abuse victims complaints against SGM.)
And this comment from someone who sees the bigger picture:
“104Jon Washinngton
August 27th, 2011 at 7:40 am
Kris et al…..I come to all of this not knowing anything about SGM or CJ or Brent. I did know the name Josh Harris but never read his book on dating. I commend you all for the love you are showing. I will confess that the inter-workings of SGM and CLC are not my concern as much of the national endorsement that CJ seems to receive from men I have admired and follow. I hope that no matter how this turns out for SGM and CJ they will take a harder look at that support. I am not holding my breath.”
Very good points and comments. I hope folks will take a close look at all of this “slobbering devotion.” Thanks Diane!
Good question…
I wonder how many in the patriarchy movement grew up with Gothardism?
I don’t know the answer, but can only say looking back, from ’70′s on, everyone that I know, myself included, started with The Shepherding Movement, and then just naturally progressed to Gothard/Quiverfull then onto into patriocentric teachings. My understanding is that Doug Phillips was greatly influence by Gothard and VF is a VERY aggressive form of Gothardism. It’s quite something, to say the least. It’s also quite something to see the who’s who in the Reformed circles that advocate all of this. This all used to be a fringe movement but now so mainstream , it’s frightening. I’m seeing these teachings pop up on reformed blogs everywhere, of course under different guises. I’m thinking folks need to take heed, learn what these movements are so they can then go back and check out someone like a Sproul Jr. or Bauchman, to name 2 (drops in the bucket)..and see why they say the things they do, where they are coming from. http://www.visionforum.com/news/blogs/doug/2008/10/4465/
I see a lot of the same stuff, and it all looks like it was just built around Gothardism and the shepherding movement. People want checklists to see if they are “holy” enough – do they have enough boxes checked to be acceptable to God?
I know what you mean Glenn. We all should look deep into how the sausage is made…Gothardites are alive and well, just look, for one at SGM. Looking at C.J. Mahaney (Shepherding Movement and many Gothard principles) and Joshua Harris’ background (Gothard) is enough to give anyone pause. Hello??? I Kissed Dating Goodbye, is Gothardism, play by play (and in many cases could be considered plagiarism) The Harris boys and daddy are a bunch to behold. Then we have all of the other big names coming along side SGM….well why…what’s their interest?? lol. Gothardism/Patriarchy is on the rise and wow, we even have reality shows praising this cult. (I guess they are still on??-nevr watched!) Homeschooling has even been taken over by these groups. (has been for a long while) Amazing. What a mess. I know I’ll keep pounding at these groups, here and there on this blog. These teaching destroyed my family, so I have a first hand interest in this. Looking forward to your next article on Gothard, know it will be packed full of interesting goodies, continuing to expose….I say Amen to that!
I find it interesting that Gothard has never been married from what I understand.
Is a very interesting point and true! Claims the gift of celibacy…don’t know what that’s all about, though. When I was attending seminars I assumed he was married, just never entered my head that he wasn’t. But is interesting, isn’t it.
Woah…Froms Glen’s article:
p.6 Item 1. “Grace is the desire and power to do God’s will.” The passage in support of this definition is Phil. 2:13. In all my years as a Christian, I have never heard of this definition of grace. Grace is basically getting what we don’t deserve. God’s grace is directed at us; it is not our “desire and power to do God’s will.” The Scripture cited says: “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do his good pleasure.” This has nothing to do with the definition of grace!
I’m still reading through this post, but misunderstandings about core doctrines such as grace lead to big big problems elsewhere…Case in point…Rome.
Quite a definition! Gothard also teaches that grace is, ““The desire and power to reproduce ourselves spiritually.” (from The Advanced Seminar Textbook, pg 30) What else can we expect from someone who suggests that a man keep track of his wife’s menstrual cycle and use it as a reminder of the sufferings and death of Jesus….Gothard has always been out to lunch.
Yes, the definition is one of my favorites of his. I will be including that one in my next review.
Good deal…wonder what new age book/guru Gothard got that definition from.
Thanks RT for the wealth of information gleened from these blogs – appreciate your posting them.
Welcome Ali!!