The Reformed Traveler's Research

Around Town: Week in Review (From John Shelby Spong to Sovereign Grace Ministries)

22 Responses

1. 

   Carter, on December 5, 2011 at 09:00 said:

   I have kind of a follow up question to Joel Taylor’s post on Mark Driscoll. Would you please explain your take on Spurgeon’s “extra-biblical revelations” ?

   http://books.google.com/books?id=n4_Rm5jJuPMC&pg=PT34&lpg=PT34&dq=charles+spurgeon+man+stole+gloves&source=bl&ots=tv2K4f_iYr&sig=oBaUnJph_0yh9c2lbwmgK6lqscA&hl=en&ei=MNzcTuqnLYjNtgeNuP3tAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

   http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/bio13.htm

   Thanks
   • 

     thereformedtraveler, on December 5, 2011 at 12:18 said:

     I think the way to give my ‘take’ on Spurgeon is to point to this: To go along with Driscoll’s video of ‘seeing things’, which I assume you have listened to (as posted) we read ~ Mark Driscoll – “Sex, a Study of the Good Bits from Song of Solomon” (Carter, since you brought Driscoll up, if you were comparing his visions to Spuregeon’s ‘extra biblical revelations’… (Let it be understood that I put a disclaimer on this transcript as it could lead some into sinful lust and fantasy)
     https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dg4fc37g_6fjdd38c8&hl=en&pli=1

     In this writing by Spurgeon he says the following. Is he a liar? Deceived?

     “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.”—John 17:17.

     What is the truth? There is the point. Is the truth that which I imagine to be revealed to me by some private communication? Am I to fancy that I enjoy some special revelation, and am I to order my life by voices, dreams, and impressions?

     Brethren, fall not into this common delusion. God’s word to us is in Holy Scripture. All the truth that sanctifies men is in God’s Word. Do not listen to those who cry, “Lo here!” and “Lo there!”

     I am plucked by the sleeve almost every day by crazy persons and pretenders who have revelations. One man tells me that God has sent a message to me by him; and I reply, “No, sir, the Lord knows where I dwell, and he is so near to me that he would not need to send to me by you.”

     Another man announces in God’s name a dogma which, on the face of it, is a lie against the Holy Ghost. He says the Spirit of God told him so-and-so; but we know that the Holy Ghost never contradicts himself.

     If your imaginary revelation is not according to this Word, it has no weight with us; and if it is according to this Word, it is no new thing.

     Brethren, this Bible is enough if the Lord does but use it, and quicken it by his Spirit in our hearts. Truth is neither your opinion, nor mine; your message, nor mine. Jesus says, “Thy word is truth.” That which sanctifies men is not only truth, but it is the particular truth which is revealed in God’s Word—”Thy word is truth.”

     What a blessing it is that all the truth that is necessary to sanctify us is revealed in the Word of God, so that we have not to expend our energies upon discovering truth, but may, to our far greater profit, use revealed truth for its divine ends and purposes! There will be no more revelations; no more are needed. The canon is fixed and complete, and he that adds to it shall have added to him the plagues that are written in this Book.

     What need of more when here is enough for every practical purpose? “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.”

     C. H. Spurgeon

     I concur to what is said in the following: My take on Spurgeon:

     Spurgeon states that John 17:17 tells us that God’s Word is fixed and it is Scripture. People are deluded who think otherwise. Pretty straightforward I would say. No “special revelations” at his place of ministry.

     By Spurgeon’s testimony we know that God acted upon his brain cells to give him accurate knowledge of things which he knew not by any other means. But did he equate that knowledge with divine revelation or the prophetic Scripture – God’s speaking the Word? NO!

     Does not God “act” in providence, even upon our minds, and at times do not those “acts” seem very real (subjective) – as if – God is “speaking” to us? But we confuse the issue. They are not God speaking, they are God acting. Spurgeon obviously did not equate the phenomenon he experienced with God SPEAKING to him. He even states such – I was MOVED by the Spirit to say it. He did NOT say – the Spirit spoke to Me His Word and then I spoke that Word to the man in the assembly. Nor did he then, based upon his experience, come up with some formula to tune himself to hear some voice, dream or impression – thinking he was to hear God’s voice as if He was speaking apart from His Word! (Charismania) The Scripture gives internal testimony of both these things: God speaks – His Word and God acts/gifts – His providence. Is it easy to miss this difference in God’s dealings? Evidently! Spurgeon knew the difference and therefore this sermon is not double-talk as some might think. God acted through Spurgeon and the thing he “spoke” to the man was that everything is laid bare before Him with whom we have to deal – just like Hebrews 4:13 says – and God, not Spurgeon, acted in coming up with the proof. Rather decisive wouldn’t you say?

     His perfect acts/gifts upon or through vessels (just like His perfect Word) can be misinterpreted by those same vessels. And not only can they be misinterpreted – their distinguishableness can be confused. But God does not have to “speak” even to a king in order to move that king to divert his course. Nor does the king have to “hear” to be moved. And the Apostles never gave “how to” instructions for mystically “hearing God’s voice” (even though our “Christian” bookstores are filled with such nonsense) because of these two distinguishable and distinct things: God’s Word and God’s providence/acts/gifts. And, in fact, some take what the Bible has to say about the His gifts and His Word so very seriously, that they realize some of those gifts have certainly ceased in their operation as they did during the time of the apostles and prophets. But the Word of God endures forever.

     And that is why, even when Spurgeon experienced that which he experienced, would then say:

     “If your imaginary revelation is not according to this Word, it has no weight with us; and if it is according to this Word, it is no new thing.”

     Can anyone in our day say it more plainly than that?

     Considering what is happening in our “evangelical” churches these days -this is a most timely sermon. The battle for the sole authority and sufficiency of Scripture rages on. Don’t miss it. It would seem another spirit has invaded our churches for the purpose of God’s judgment.
     Source

     Here is the transcript of Driscoll’s video of I See Things:

     Transcript:
     Some people actually see things. This may be gift of discernment. On occasion, I see things. I see things. Uh, like I was meeting with one person and they—they didn’t know this, but they were abused when they were a child. And I said, “When you were a child you were abused. This person did this to you, physically touched you this way.”

     He said, “How do you know?”

     I said, “I don’t know. It’s like I got a TV right here. I’m seeing it.”

     He said, “No that never happened.”

     I said, “Go ask him. Go ask him if they actually did what I think they did and I see that they did.”

     They went and asked this person, “When I was a little kid did you do this?”

     And the person said, “Yyyyeah, but you were only like a year or two old. How do you remember that?”

     He said, “Well, pastor Mark told me.”

     I’m not a guru. I’m not a freak. I don’t talk about this. If I did talk about it everybody’d want to meet with me and I’d end up like one of those guys on TV. But some of you have this visual ability to see things.

     Um, uh, there was one women I dealt with. She never told her husband that she had committed adultery on him early in the relationship. I said, “You know—” (she’s sitting there with her husband). I said, “You know I think the root of all this—I think Satan has a foothold in your life because you’ve never told your husband about that really tall blonde guy that you met at the bar. And then you went back to the hotel. And you laid on your back. And you undressed yourself. And he climbed on top of you. And you had sex with him. And snuggled up with him for a while. And deep down in your heart, even though you had just met him, you desired him because secretly he is the fantasy body type.” I said, “You remember that place it was that cheap hotel with that certain-colored bedspread. You did it—you had sex with the light on because you weren’t ashamed and you wanted him to see you. And you wanted to see him.”

     She was just looking at me like—

     I said,”You know, it was about ten years ago.

     “I see everything.”

     She says—she looks at her husband. He says, “Is that true?”

     She says, “Yeah.”

     “He was 6’2″, blonde hair, blue eyes?”

     “Yeah.”

     Some of you when you’re counseling you will see things. I mean you will, you will literally gift of discernment see things. I can’t explain it. It doesn’t happen all the time.

     Sometimes your counselee, they will see things. Ye—eh—there’s pa— I found this with people—ok, now let me—I’m gonna ask the demon questions. You tell me what they say.”

     “They don’t say anything.”

     I say, “What do you hear?”

     And they say, “Nothing.” They say, “But I’m seeing stuff.”

     “Oh, oh, well tell me. What’s that?”

     “I’m seeing—you know when I was little my grandpa molested me. I didn’t know that.”

     I said, “Well, let’s not assume it’s true. Go ask your grandfather.”

     Grandpa says, “Yyyeah, when you were little I molested you.” Grandpa was assuming they’d be too young to remember. So he’d only molest grand kids up to a certain age. But they saw it.

     It’s the supernatural. It’s, it’s, it’s the whole other realm. It’s like the Matrix. You can take the blue pill, you take the red pill. You go into this whole other world. And, and, and that’s the way it works.

     So I say—tell me everything you hear, tell me everything you see. And sometimes I see things too. I see things too. I’ve seen women raped. I’ve seen children molested. I’ve seen people abused. I’ve seen people beaten. I’ve seen horrible things done. Horrible things done. I’ve seen children dedicated in occultic groups and demons come upon them as an infant by invitation. And I wasn’t present for any of it, but I’ve seen it visibly.

     Upon occasion when I get up to preach I’ll see—just like a screen in front of me—I’ll see somebody get raped or abused and then I’ll track ‘em down and say, “Look I had this vision. Let me tell you about it.” All true. One I had—I was sitting in my office at the old, uh, Earl Building. This gal walks by. Nice gal, member of the church. This is when the church was small. And it’s just like a TV was there and I saw the night before her husband threw her up against the wall, had her by the throat, was physically violent with her.

     And she said, “That’s it, I’m telling the pastors.”

     And he said, “If you do I’ll kill you.” He was a very physically abusive man.

     She was walking by and I just saw it. It was like a TV. And I said, “Hey, come here for a second.” I said, “Last night did your husband throw you up against the wall and have you by the throat, physically assault you and tell you if you told anyone he would kill you?”

     And she just starts bawling. She says, “How did you know?”

     I said, “Jesus told me.”

     I call the guy on the phone: “Hey, I need you to come to the office.” Didn’t give him any clue.

     He comes in and I said, “Dude, what’d you do to your wife last night? Why’d you do this? Why’d you throw her up against the wall?”

     And he gets very angry. They’re sitting on the couch and he says, “Why did you tell him?”

     I said, “She didn’t. Jesus did. Jesus did.”

     . . . And there are some people that have real gift of discernment, and I’m not saying I’m a hundred percent always right with it, but some of you are going to have gift of discernment, and you need to—you need to learn to grow in the use of that gift. And sometimes people will hear things. Sometimes people will see things. (end of Driscoll transcript)

     Hope this helps to distinguish between Driscoll and Spurgeon.
     • 

       carter, on December 5, 2011 at 14:43 said:

       Thank you for such a thorough and thoughtful response. I look forward to thinking my way through it. Joel Taylor didn’t even bother to respond. He just deleted my question and the links.
     • 

       thereformedtraveler, on December 5, 2011 at 16:20 said:

       Very welcome Carter, Lord bless as you read through.
     • 

       Carter, on December 6, 2011 at 09:26 said:

       As I listen to what Driscoll is saying, it seems that he is struggling to put a label on what he has experienced. He said perhaps it is the gift of discernment. His language concerning his experiences is not as careful as Spurgeons, but his experiences may have been similar in that they both came to know things which they could not have known unless the Holy Spirit had acted upon them.

       He said it doesn’t happen a lot and he doesn’t know when it will happen. It just does. In that sermon he has said that he could be wrong and he puts them in the category of what needs to be tested to see if they are true.

       I don’t know if it was in that sermon because I have listened to several Driscoll sermons and I think his experience has been similar to Spurgeon’s when he said “I am plucked by the sleeve almost every day by crazy persons and pretenders who have revelations. One man tells me that God has sent a message to me by him; and I reply, “No, sir, the Lord knows where I dwell, and he is so near to me that he would not need to send to me by you.”

       Another man announces in God’s name a dogma which, on the face of it, is a lie against the Holy Ghost. He says the Spirit of God told him so-and-so; but we know that the Holy Ghost never contradicts himself.”

       From that, I don’t think he would disagree with what Spurgeon said. Do you? BTW he said Spurgeon is his hero. He loves the guy.
     • 

       thereformedtraveler, on December 6, 2011 at 19:31 said:

       Carter you say, “…but his experiences may have been similar in that they both came to know things which they could not have known unless the Holy Spirit had acted upon them.”

       I addressed this in my previous comments.

       You also said, ..”He says the Spirit of God told him so-and-so; but we know that the Holy Ghost never contradicts himself.”

       From that, I don’t think he would disagree with what Spurgeon said. Do you?”

       This was the point of my previous comments.

       If you are saying that Driscoll and Spurgeon are BOTH ‘discerning’ by the Holy Spirit, I have to disagree.

       Also what does Mark’s statements that Spurgeon is his hero and loves the guy have to do with his talking to demons and seeing things, “It’s like I got a TV right here. I’m seeing it.” and this “discernment” as he describes is, “It’s the supernatural. It’s, it’s, it’s the whole other realm. It’s like the Matrix. You can take the blue pill, you take the red pill. You go into this whole other world. And, and, and that’s the way it works.”

       He says Jesus told him (read transcript), do you believe that Jesus would whisper in you ear or appear before you and tell you, “Hey the guy down the street just threw his wife up against the wall.” Carter how can that possibly be since Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father. Jesus does not fly around appearing to people or talking to them. (unless one believes in some form of Modalism..God is doing one thing, Jesus another and Holy Spirit is off doing something else) Plus, he sees rapes, little children being molested, women having sex in motels, children dedicated in occultic groups and demons come upon them as an infant by invitation. Is that the Holy Spirit?

       Carter, are you saying that the Holy Spirit would show people the whole act of a little child being molested, playing it all back to us on a TV screen? Is that what you are comparing to Spurgeon?

       To compare Spurgeon to Driscoll? I say discern the spirits.

       Carter if you are trying to pull my chain, fine with me- we can go on with this, or not. If you seriously want to understand where Driscoll is coming from, do your background research on him.

       Lord bless you Carter as you continue to search the Scripture to see if these things are so.
   • 

     Carter, on December 7, 2011 at 11:01 said:

     “If you are saying that Driscoll and Spurgeon are BOTH ‘discerning’ by the Holy Spirit, I have to disagree.”

     Yes, I think both are discerning by the Holy Spirit. The only other options are that either or both Spurgeon and Driscoll are making things up or an evil spirit is giving one or both the knowledge.

     Both men seem extremely Christ centered so I’ll go with both are discerning by the Holy Spirit.

     Do I think Jesus whispered in his ear? Not literally no, nor do I believe in modalism, but rather one God in three person equal in power and glory. However, when a prophet spoke, he spoke the very words of God therefore in a very real sense it was God speaking even though it was the prophet. In the same way, if it were one of God’s angels, a spirit, whispering in his ear, then it would indeed be God/Jesus speaking to him. Is Driscoll a prophet, no but, those who speak should speak as an oracle of God. Does he misspeak? Sure. We all do especially those who speak or write for a living.

     Does the Holy Spirit reveal sin? Sure. Visually? Not to me, but God sees it. Would He choose to reveal to someone what He sees? He could. Would He? Evidently Driscoll thinks what he sees is from God and not from Satan.

     Nope, not trying to pull your chain. Driscoll’s latest series is on the Gospel of Luke. I’ve only listened to a few of them, but I find him to be very Christ centered. He is mentored by DA Carson and John Piper (I know some can’t stand him) both of whom I feel know Christ and desire to please Christ. If Christ is being preach by a man in that I will rejoice and I believe He is so I rejoice.

     I encourage you to listen to a few messages in the Luke series and see what you think. You may be surprised.
2. 

   dawnmarie4, on August 20, 2011 at 18:36 said:

   I think I also need to add that the church cannot use “clergy penitent privilege” as a way to protect pedophiles from law enforcement. It’s a crime, not a matter of church discipline.

   “Some states mandate clergy reporting and permit exceptions under unique circumstances. It is important to refer to individual state statutes. Clergy are always required to report suspected or known child sexual abuse, even when the conversation is confidential or made as a privileged communication. Also common to these states is the absence of a “confessional privilege” within state law.iii This would suggest required reporting even in the instance of “confessional confidentiality” in the Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and Episcopal contexts.iv

   The two largest groups of states specifically identify “clergy” as a class that is required to report child sexual abuse, but allows clergy an exemption from reporting if the information is acquired in a confidential communication.

   Finally, some states do not specifically mandate clergy reporting by class. Typically these states rely upon a “catch-all” category with language similar to the following: “Any other person may report if such person has reasonable cause to believe …”v However, even in these states, clergy reporting is required.”

   http://fcpei.denverda.org/fcpei/Classroom/UnitTen.htm
   • 

     thereformedtraveler, on August 21, 2011 at 11:11 said:

     Thanks for this info!
3. 

   Diane, on August 20, 2011 at 13:44 said:

   You know, the 600 page document going public–was that the reason CJ stepped down in July? He had posession of part of it many months earlier and did not step down. It is my understanding he received parts of these docs periodically over months. When CJ realized that Brent had finally sent them all over to numerous SGM pastors, he stepped down to review his many sins and, according to CJ, has repented of some, not all, of what he has been accused. Would CJ have stepped down if Brent had not done that? The docs are just one issue.

   According to the survivor and refuge blogs, which have been in existence for several years, SGM has not acknowledged the blog’s complaints and have ignored them and instructed their members to not read the “slanderous” things, until recently. Now, the blogs exist and one pastor has said– read them, some say don’t- it is gossip to do so, some pastors have admitted they have indeed not cared for the victims of child sexual abuse as they should have.

   There are many, many stories of covering it up, protecting the perpetrator, not telling the members of the congregation the identity of the perp so they could protect their children, demanding the abuse victims forgive the perp instantly, financial help for the perps legal expenses but not to the victims….some pretty ghastly things….seemingly to protect their public image (but that would only be my opinion). But, no church wants it to get out that they have had child abuse in its midst. Sure, one needs to read these stories with caution, but they all can’t be false.

   Granted, sexual abuse of children abounds in all kinds of churches and when some churches are steeped in legalistic heavyhanded shepherding type teachings of obedience to whatever your pastors say and are taught their pastors are the ones who hear for them from God….that can cause a big mess and seemingly it has.

   While the docs give insight into the workings of SGM and the incredible details of accountability and scrutiny these men decree they have over each other, and, as silly as that all is, that is not my concern. I am so glad they came to light if their presence caused (or finally forced) any of the involved SG churches to rethink and repent of the pastoral care they had given to the abuse victims and their families….and their policies on how to deal with this problem. Some are doing that, they report. Some have admitted to some things in their sermons as of late. A pastor from a SGM church wrote a comment on one of the “slanderous” blogs validating their hurt and wishing to make contact. That was the first time a pastor had ever reached out to the “blog people.” That was huge, for them.

   Now the Washington Post is apparently doing a story on SGM. I for one am glad someone shouted it from the rooftops. I only care about children. There would not be these shepherding type, overly authoritarian, “overseeing every detail of your life” kids of churches if people weren’t willing to go and enable the leaders. But the poor kids are born into it. So my empathy is for them.

   After all, CJ has pushed SGM as the way one should do church. Wants us all to look at SGM, emulate them, see how wonderfully they teach about family relations, courtship and dating, child rearing etc. So, now he is getting lots of lookers.

   Whether one finds it in the bible to do it this way… we all can make arguments. I believe God would have us protect the little ones from abuse. If the shepherds will not protect the sheep–what then? I know God does hold us accountable for seeing wrongs and injustices and not doing anything about it. The little ones need us to protect them.

   And a fyi. I looked up Tim Challies church that he attends and of which he is an elder. I can see why he wrote the article the way he did. I looked up the Members Responsibilites stated on the church’s website. Seemed familiar to what SGM teaches. And, under Resources in the links we like page, SGM is listed. So, there may be a connection with SGM and his own church…albeit an informal one. He did say he was not in any way formally connected to SGM.

   There–I guess that’s all Jo, lol I think I have probably said too much!
   • 

     thereformedtraveler, on August 20, 2011 at 16:18 said:

     No Diane, you haven’t said too much, you said it very well. Good overview.

     I do hope that criminal charges will follow. Who in their right mind would even want to be one of the wagons circling to protect pedophiles? Who would even want to be NEAR one of those wagons? This has nothing to do with ‘church discipline’…it’s waaaay beyond that. We aren’t talking about if sister Betty got caught stealing the flowers that the preacher’s wife put up front for all to enjoy or even if a pastor had an adulterous affair or got caught doing coke or looking a porn while he was in his study. No. Can’t pull the Matt. 18 card here. And if we do, using it as a cover-up for protecting pedophiles??? What does that say? Want to talk about Sovereign Grace? This is Sovereign Grace, the exposing. This isn’t as has been said, “an enemy attack on God’s work”. Since when was blackmail and child molestation, literally kicking women for glee, etc, God’s work? Oh, yea, get it…the name is Reformed. I see. What is this like the Vegas commercial….Whatever happens in the church stays in the church?

     I would encourage readers to do their research into the history of The Shepherding Movement and follow it on into SGM. We are talking a 40 year history here. I challenge folks to think about that in (SGM) history of Charismatic, Charismatic Catholic and poof suddenly Reformed, using the same authoritarian structure….(to name one) C.J. says he’s top apostle, wait just a minute top Apostle??? and then he has those under him who must submit. I can vouch personally for the history of SGM (changing their name how many times through the years?) since I ran in the same circles/system of C.J.’S pre SGM days, this system of…. (as someone (Cindy K) put it…”surreptitious manipulation tactics including tight social/milieu control, the manipulation of language, shame induction, sin confession sessions, “sin sniffing,” demanding purity and self-negation from followers, mystical/divine manipulation tactics, unquestionable doctrine/leadership, granting/denial of personhood, cursings when people leave, obsession with public image, forbidden criticism of leaders/doctrine, and an unbalanced focus on minor doctrine. The authoritarianism is just one small aspect of this greater, fully-orbed process and system.”

     Thanks Diane, didn’t mean to hijack your comment!! Your FYI is well noted….does anyone understand how huge this system is?????? Or what it all entails? Evidently not.
4. 

   dawnmarie4, on August 20, 2011 at 11:35 said:

   I guess the way I think about all of this is by asking questions about what other men in history did and still do. Luther? Calvin? They went up against the “Mother” Church and from that we got a Bible in the lay man’s language, were freed from the power of Rome. Should the victims of the RCC sex abuse scandals have kept silent? The stories of the martyrs from the Crusades…should their story have never been told?

   When someone’s teaching and actions is consistantly wrong and people are getting hurt, as they refuse to change their ways…when the pastors refuse to keep watch over the sheep and other pastors knowingly protect them, people need to be warned so they can avoid them. If it takes a forum like SGM survivors or the internet to do that because the people have tried to address the problems withing the church but were ignored, well, these men have brought it on themselves. Preachers are called to be watchmen for the sheep. What happens when good men keep silent? Criminals, hirelings and unbelievers infiltrate and lead the church…even from the pulpits? It’s one thing for preachers to warn and give the people a chance to listen and if people refuse to listen, then it’s on their own heads. I’m thinking about things like the WOF movement etc where these men have been exposed over and over again yet still have followers. The problem is that our preachers are not warning, infact, they are allowing men to hide under their own names. They are joining in fiece protecting and I don’t see how that can be right, loving or the truthful thing to do. We are to speak the truth in love and sometimes being loving doesn’t mean being cotton candy sweet. It means telling the truth and acting on it. If that means exposing so that other people can flee from the error because you love them more than the good name of the ministry they are abused by. It means your motives are purely out of love for the sheep and public exposure may in fact be the only loving thing left to do. Judgement begins in the house of the Lord. When a brother sins against us, we go to them in private. If they refuse to listen, we take it to the church, if they still refuse to listen, then we treat them as a heathen and a tax collector. What then do we do when the authorities of the church are sinning against the congregation and refuse to listen? After the second warning, it seems we are to treat them as a heathen and a tax collector exposing their deeds and marking them. We were told not even to wish a false teachers God’s speed, lest we partake in their evil deeds. I see that if these people who have been hurt are ignored, we are guilty of hating our own brothers and sisters, allowing them to be devoured by wolves. Our people are being made merchandise of.

   I am not a watchman, only a lowly sheep. I however, depend on the watchmen to warn me, to keep me from wasting my time and energy and taking heed to people who are wolves. They are not doing their job and I feel betrayed.

   Ezekiel 33

   1Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

   2Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:

   3If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;

   4Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.

   5He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.

   6But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman’s hand.

   7So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.

   Isaiah 56:9-11

   Israel’s Irresponsible Leaders

   9 All you beasts of the field, come to devour—
   all you beasts in the forest.
   10 His watchmen are blind;
   they are all without knowledge;
   they are all silent dogs;
   they cannot bark,
   dreaming, lying down,
   loving to slumber.
   11 The dogs have a mighty appetite;
   they never have enough.
   But they are shepherds who have no understanding;
   they have all turned to their own way,
   each to his own gain, one and all.

   Jeremiah 6:16-18

   16Thus says the LORD:”Stand by the roads, and look,
   and ask for the ancient paths,
   where the good way is; and walk in it,
   and find rest for your souls.
   But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ 17 I set watchmen over you, saying,
   ‘Pay attention to the sound of the trumpet!’
   But they said, ‘We will not pay attention.’ 18Therefore hear, O nations,
   and know, O congregation, what will happen to them.
   • 

     thereformedtraveler, on August 20, 2011 at 16:48 said:

     “If that means exposing so that other people can flee from the error because you love them more than the good name of the ministry they are abused by. It means your motives are purely out of love for the sheep and public exposure may in fact be the only loving thing left to do.”
     There you go. Amen. May we never become dull to the Scriptures that you posted. Odd- a mere coincidence that you would bring up the Catholic system in regard to the subject at hand. Right?
     All very well said Dawn. Appreciate it so very much.
5. 

   dawnmarie4, on August 20, 2011 at 11:28 said:

   I’ve been confused for a while about all this, not just the recent SGM scandals, other things as well. I ran across this article a while ago which gave me some clarity. My concern is that the men who are preachers, or watchmen, are asleep at the wheel and they are refusing to warn. Instead, they are protecting their own, but their own doesn’t seem to be the sheep.

   Quote from article:

   How shall we treat false teachers when they arise? The answer to this question needs not to be long.

   1. As soon as we discern their false teaching, it is our duty to refuse to hear them or to read their books. Never was more wholesome or beneficial advice given than that of Solomon: “Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causes to err from the words of knowledge” (Prov. 19:27). In answer to a question from a corrupt writer, John Newton excused himself for not having read his book, by saying: “If a neighbor sends me a joint of meat, and I find one slice corrupted, I am not bound to eat it at all.” Human nature is in most cases too weak to bear a long and voluntary subjection to evil influences without very ill effects. Were men wholly without sin, it would grieve them to be compelled to listen to lies and to slanders on God’s truth and government. The less pain such false teachings give us, the more dangerous they are. All pleas for giving our ears to false teachers are in the teeth of the good petition: “Lead us not into temptation.”

   2. If a false teacher is already in an orthodox Church, it is right to disown him, and cast him out, not with maledictions, but with sorrow and prayer and firmness. So teaches Paul: “I would that they which trouble you were even cut off.” Again: “A heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject” (Gal. 5:12; Titus 3:10). The Church is always greatly polluted, when she refuses to disown a blatant teacher of false doctrine.

   3. False teachers must also be firmly and meekly resisted in all their attempts to lead men astray. When even Peter was betrayed into deception concerning false doctrines, Paul withstood him to the face, and rebuked him sharply. Jude “exhorted” his brethren “earnestly to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints” (verse 3). He who is willing to risk nothing for Christ, does not love Christ. He who, being duly called to defend the truth, declines to do so, does not love the truth. That is a good saying, and none the worse for being old: “Do you love controversy? suspect your love. Do you abhor controversy? suspect your Christianity.”

   4. While the Scriptures call on us to feed the hungry and to be kind to the poor, they forbid us to hold such fellowship with false teachers, as implies sympathy with them or connivance at their wicked teachings. Thus the loving and blessed John says: “If someone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, don’t invite him into your house or encourage him in any way. Anyone who encourages him becomes a partner in his evil work.” (2 John 10-11). This is conclusive. The meaning is, not that we should not relieve their bodily needs—feed them or shelter them when in distress—but that we should not show them those hospitalities, which the churches usually extend to Christ’s ministers. The same John fled the baths when he found a noted heretic in them, saying, “Let us flee lest the bath fall, while an enemy of truth is within!”

   5. In dealing with corrupt teachers, it is peculiarly important not to be intimidated by them. “The fear of man brings a snare.” “Do not fear anything except the Lord Almighty. He alone is the Holy One. If you fear him, you need fear nothing else. He will keep you safe.” (Prov. 29:25; Isa. 8:13-14). Truth is like the spear of Ithuriel. No falsehood can endure its touch. The sword of the Spirit is two-edged and very sharp.

   At the Synod of Nicea, A. D., 325, before the business began, there appeared in the assembly certain heathen philosophers, “some with a design to satisfy their curiosity concerning Christianity, others wishing to involve the Christians in a cloud of verbal subtleties, and to enjoy the mutual contradictions of the followers of Christ. One of them distinguished himself above the rest by the power and arrogancy of his pretensions, and derided the clergy as ignorant and illiterate. On this occasion, an old Christian who had suffered with magnanimous constancy during the late persecutions, though unacquainted with logical forms, undertook to contend with the philosopher. Those who were more anxious to gratify curiosity than to investigate truth, endeavored to raise a laugh at the old man’s expense; while serious spirits were distressed to see a contest apparently so unequal. Respect for the man, however, induced them to permit him to engage. And he immediately addressed the philosopher in these terms: ‘Hear, philosopher, in the name of Jesus Christ. There is one God, the Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible, who made all things by the power of His Word, and confirmed them by the holiness of His Spirit. This Word, whom we call the Son of God, compassionating the sons of men involved in error and wickedness, chose to be born of a woman, to converse with men, and to die for them; and He will come again, the Judge of all things which men have done in the body; that these things are so, we believe in simplicity; do not then labor in vain, seeking to confute things which ought to be received by faith, and investigating the manner in which these things may or may not be; but if you believe, answer me, now that I ask you.’ Struck with this plain, authoritative address, the philosopher said: ‘I do believe;’ with pleasure owned himself vanquished, confessed that he embraced the same sentiments with the old man, and advised the other philosophers to do the same, averring that he was changed by a divine influence, and was moved by an energy which he could not explain.” Such is the power of truth when the Holy Spirit makes it efficacious. The longer a godly man lives, the firmer is his confidence in the simple truths of Scripture to renew the heart, save the soul, check error, and bring glory to God.

   Read More here: http://www.gracegems.org/Plumer/false_doctrines.htm
6. 

   Born4Battle, on August 20, 2011 at 09:14 said:

   Let’s see:

   A well known pastor gets pornographic visions from the Holy Spirit who is God and cannot look upon sin. Right.

   There are a bunch of boys claiming to be Reformed leaders celebrating their beer. Right.

   There are problems with a notable ministry and Christians are airing all the dirty laundry in public. Right.

   Not that there hasn’t been sin in the church, but I remember something about the ‘telling others’ stops at the the folks in the church and taking action in the church, but I don’t remember anything about broadcasting it all to the world, while bashing certain church leaders for NOT broadcasting/scolding, etc. in public.Right.

   Methinks there is trouble in River City, on several fronts. I’m not sure I can sort it all out.
   • 

     thereformedtraveler, on August 20, 2011 at 17:10 said:

     I’d say SGM is notable in that they are notable for cover- ups and trying to shut up of victims of pedophilia. Born, you can’t mean that you mean that covering- up pedophilia is ok (of course you don’t) and when it is exposed that means “bashing leaders” ??? Please explain? You mention, “a bunch of boys claiming to be Reformed leaders celebrating their beer. Right”….so on the other hand, when we have Reformed leaders telling everyone under them (in their ‘Apostolic’ authoritarian structure) to shut up and they send out their damage control people to shut everybody up…because they are trying with all of their might to protect pedophiles…I don’t understand…beer….pedophiles. One not ok…and the other???? What? Not getting what you are saying here?
7. 

   Born4Battle, on August 20, 2011 at 06:00 said:

   Catching up on reading and have several “To read” reminders for the articles mentioned.
8. 

   dawnmarie4, on August 19, 2011 at 19:35 said:

   Well…I must admit that I was visualizing pictures of wagons while I wrote it Diane.
9. 

   Diane, on August 19, 2011 at 17:10 said:

   Thanks for this. Jo. Very nice. Amen to all that stuff that smart Dawn wrote above.
   • 

     thereformedtraveler, on August 20, 2011 at 06:25 said:

     
10. 

    dawnmarie4, on August 19, 2011 at 07:37 said:

    Lots to think about this week Jo. Thank you for putting this together.

    I see a common thread running through the above articles as different as they all are.

    Extrabiblical revelation and adding to scripture seem to be the theme here. In the above articles we see this leading to mystical, experiential christianity and hearing the audible voice of God. We see the “clergy” elevating their positions of authority to such an extreme that a cult like environment is created in which the sheep are abused in many many ways both mentally and physically. We see men using the pastoral christian circuit to make merchandise of the sheep resulting in their need to protect these abusive systems (circle the wagons) for the sake of their own livelyhood and finally, imposing burdens and chains of restriction where God never did.
    • 

      thereformedtraveler, on August 19, 2011 at 09:53 said:

      Good summation. No not just good…excellent. If folks don’t want to wade through all of the info in the post, I’ll send them to your comments!!!! Perfect. Thank you!

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